New Modified Layin SuperCross Strategy - Need help to poke holes and Test please

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DiceSki
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New Modified Layin SuperCross Strategy - Need help to poke holes and Test please

Post by DiceSki » Sun May 25, 2025 4:07 am

HI Guys and Girls

Im a new user that has been following Axis Power for a while with the youtube and free forum posts over the last years - and was very thankful to find the June 2022 video on Bonetracker which has led me to develop this new strategy that needs testing...

I have been rolling the dice for around 7 years but only manage to hit the real casino once or twice a year and the rest of the time was practicing or playing with friends on my home table - but BoneTracker was a complete game changer in keeping track and actually making me work towards a purpose.

I have a vegas trip coming up 11-15 June and been running this new LayingSuperCrossMod - for a lack of better name - strategy on BoneTracker and have around 1500 rolls in... and changed my dice set 3-4 times so each setting has around 300-500 rolls on record - but what has been the most interesting is that so far it seems I always manage to end my sessions with a win... sometimes just a bit more than break even.. sometimes 2-3 x of buy in at which I stop.

I want to also start by saying I understand that the CASINO ALWAYS WINS - hahaha - and have a good grasp of the math / probability and house edge - thus I would like to have your input from the experts in this community to perhaps try this themselves and poke some holes in the theory to see what can perhaps be done to make it better or changes -- and if other people have the same results ?

LayingSuperCrossMod - Outline

On $15 Table - Buy in $750 - Current dice set (21 top/65 facing me - been my 4th change due to BoneTracker advice to work with my toss)

The theory of the strategy is to swop out Big Red as the boogieman for 4 instead since as everyone is aware the probability of 7 is 6/36 - 16.67% - and probability of 4 is 3/36 - 8.3% and easy 4 is only 5.5%

In order to hedge against the 7 - I Lay 4 with $200 (to pay $100 - vig) and to further hedge that lay - I place always working $30 on Hard 4 to bring only bad numbers down to 3:1 and 1:3.

This then gives me a hedge for $100 which is my initial betting spread.

COME OUT ROLL
- Lay 4 - $200
- HW4 - 30
- PASSLINE - $15

Use all 7 dice set and if manage a 7 - it gives $80 profit on roll - until setting a point

Once point is set - I use Iron cross - betting $15 Field / $15 nr 5 / $24 nr6 and $24 nr8 - which gives me exposure of $78 plus the $30 HW4 - so total $108 ... and if 7 comes a return of $95 (lay 4 200-vig%)

This leads me to have to roll 1-2 winning nrs before I turn positive - and at that stage I start pressing the Odds on passline
- next winning roll - take the profit and move the Field to place a uncovered nr 9 or 10
- and then keep rolling and pressing 2 nrs 1 unit each every roll and collecting winnings every 2nd roll

It is of course more of a grinding strategy - aimed to have a fun trip with longer playing time but also hoping to be lucky that if a Monster Roll comes you can profit big -- and if the table is cold - you stay alive and grind.

Now of course --- sounds great until the 4 comes - which it will... but with HW 4 covered in 30 --- that covers your Lay of 200 and pays 210 so even make a $10 profit - and its really only 3:1 and 1:3 that hurts you - but with a 5% probability - shouldn't ... and for me hasn't come up that much to kill me... of course if you hit it 2-3 times in start it hurts a lot but with 750 (maybe 1000 ? bankroll) you ride thru that and over time have many more other nrs hit than easy 4 ... and even tho you still hate Big Red - since you are ideally pressing and playing light side and hoping for monster rolls ---- when it does come.. you get your initial money back - plus whatever u made on that hand... and reload and Roll again...

And again that Lay 4 makes the come out roll 7 so much more exciting !


Sorry for the long post -- would really appreciate you experts to help by testing and poking holes in it .... and perhaps have some advice for 2 good dice sets.... a NO EASY 4 dice set to use whole play.... and an All 7 set to use when coming out to profit passline and Lay bet win.


Open for questions and appreciate all the comments, critique and advice !

Just hoping to learn as much as possible before 11 June !! :)


Kind Regards
DiceSki

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Re: New Modified Layin SuperCross Strategy - Need help to poke holes and Test please

Post by heavy » Sun May 25, 2025 5:17 pm

I'm sure DarthNater will weigh in on Lay Betting the Four at some point. LOL. I've seen him leave that sucker out there on a Crapless game because we Lay the Four on the Come Out while Working the Extreme Outside bets, so we have a perfect hedge. Hit an extreme outside number and you take down a nice win that you can use as odds on your Pass Line plus to double your bets on the remaining EO numbers. But I digress.

I'll start by saying I detest the Iron Cross over a long stretch of time. The only time I EVER use it is to take the wins and use them to populate the Place Bets I don't have covered, the 4,5, 9, and 10. Now, on to your $15 Place Bet on the Five. Screw it. Hop the Fives for $2. If it rolls it pays $15 to $1 or $16 and down. You can hop it seven times for the price of one Place Bet. I think if you're running that Iron Cross more than seven tosses you're probably running it too long anyway. In four to six tosses you should have all of the numbers covered. Then stop playing it so you'll get the full benefit of the Six and Eight and collect $28 on them instead $11 net when one of them rolls and you have to replace the Field Bet and the Hop bet on the Five.

Just my thinking but I'm sticking to it.

If you'll go down to the Transpose 72 tab on BT you'll see your best 24 sets that give you your best SRR immediately upon opening the tab. Beneath the SRR and all of the numbers on your edge on those results, on the left hand side of the page you'll see a listing of various bets. Six and Eight. Inside. Outside. Across. Etc. You can follow those data lines across and see what your best set is for each line. It will be highlighted in PINK. Of course, you should test and validate that the results actually transfer to your practice rig, but odds are they will. It's all done by facial matching of the dice - something we old timers used to have to sit down and sort out by hand before BoneTracker came along and through the magic of macros, did it all for us. It's a great program that's vastly underused by the DI community, and a significant portion of those who do use it either use it incorrectly or insufficiently.

Thanks for jumping right in and posting. Best of luck in Vegas. Be sure to give us a trip report when you get back.

h
"Get in, get up, and get gone."
- Heavy

DiceSki
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Re: New Modified Layin SuperCross Strategy - Need help to poke holes and Test please

Post by DiceSki » Mon May 26, 2025 1:38 am

Hi Heavy

Thanks for your reply and advise - much appreciated.

I attached my current BoneTracker Chart for numbers being rolled with my imperfect toss - but figured I dont have a lot of time to change the technicals of the toss and figured just to work on doing the same way and same errors consistantly - and adjust the dice instead to see if I can have less easy 4 and 7s ... and then try work with what I get and bet accordingly. This being said - I like what you say about hopping the 5 instead - makes a lot of sense - and will try that thanks.

It seems thought that with my current 21/65 setup I manage less 4 and 7 than expected but roll a lot more 5 / 11 /12 than ever before and not so many 6/8 as hoped... so 5 often seems to become my big press..
Screenshot 2025-05-26 at 07.22.34.png
BoneTracker Graph
Screenshot 2025-05-26 at 07.22.34.png (71.28 KiB) Viewed 1566 times

Regarding the Iron Cross - I agree - before this BoneTracker experiment - I used to never play the field or Iron cross at all for same reason that it eats up your 5/6/8 and I used to play with flying V set - hoping to make 6/8 big numbers and Loved to play Hard ways... then depending what other number was rolling hot - whether 5/9/10 - start following the dice and pressing there.... It led to some fun exciting days since some days I used to hit HW a lot and thats great excitement .... but also some cold days and complete bust outs with other people rolling since they hardly ever would hit HW and if Big red decided to come 3-4 times in a row I was out.... Hence the attempt for a new approach..

My first adjustment I made to that old strategy was also Laying the 4 on coming out and then turning it off... which later led to me keeping it on bit longer till I made my initial investment 66-80 back and then turning it off again...

And now that it seems I roll a lot of 5/11/12 with this set ... the field started looking interesting ... hence the addiition of the Iron cross... However I think I did not explain my process nicely before and will try again.

Layout on $15 table is as above with the $200 Lay 4 to pay 95 / $30 HW 4 to cover the Lay, so if 7 comes its $65 plus replacing the HW $30.

On come out of course - profit from Lay bet and PassLine if 7 comes - with HW4 loss -- still 85 profit / 11 makes 15 profit.

Once point is set - I have $15 - 5 / $24 on 6 / $24 on 8 with the 15 Pass line .. so have $78 out there - and if 7 comes my hedge pays $65 net... so im $13 short .... which led me to add the field and the Iron Cross - But I only play the field until I have 2 hits of any of my numbers... and that makes me turn positive and I move the field bet to an uncovered number, and start adding odds behind pass line and start pressing numbers that roll..

I have also seen that since I seem to roll quite a lot of craps 2,3,11,12 .. I play the see a horn / play a horn as well once Im positive for the excitement I used to get on the HardWays... since sadly it seems that with this dice set I successfully avoid the 4 and 7 more often but no longer roll many HW or my old targets....


Sorry if it all sounds messy... it probably it a bit of a blender strategy where I try to add and remove things from specific strategies to try make it work with this dice set... looking for that "its not very pretty to look at, but it works" approaches.

I guess my question is if I should turn off the Lay 4 at some stage .. for example as soon as I am $100 positive ? it aways feels nice getting some money back once 7 comes - but there is maybe a balance point where if I am up enough - the risk of the Lay 4 becomes bigger than its potential hedge positive ?

Thanks again and will definately report back post vegas - hopefully with a smile... and still a shirt on my back :lol:

DiceSki
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Re: New Modified Layin SuperCross Strategy - Need help to poke holes and Test please

Post by DiceSki » Mon May 26, 2025 3:12 am

Sorry - Forgot to add above -- current SRR is fluctuating between 7.8 and 8.2..

@DarthNater - would love to hear your input as well on the Lay 4 .. HW4 cover and if you think I should perhaps pull them off at a certain stage .. of keep them going ... coz I figure as long as I roll 2 sevens for every easy 4 ... I am still better off with it than without ?

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Re: New Modified Layin SuperCross Strategy - Need help to poke holes and Test please

Post by heavy » Mon May 26, 2025 2:34 pm

I think you're looking pretty solid overall with that SRR. But your average hand should be running up around 15 - 16 or so with better hands running double that. Those are the times you shouldn't (IMHO) keep that Lay action off from the table. Long hands = too many chances for bad things to happen to good people.
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Re: New Modified Layin SuperCross Strategy - Need help to poke holes and Test please

Post by Tgold » Sun Jun 08, 2025 11:11 pm

Hi DiceSki.
Welcome to forum and nice thread.

"...current SRR is fluctuating between 7.8 and 8.2..."

Nice SRR and BT Profile. You should be able to exploit several wagers.

"...LayingSuperCrossMod -..."

Thx for presenting your current wagering proposal and asking for opinions. IMO that is how players improve (by kicking ideas around /exchanging thoughts with fellow crapsters).

DiceSki:
"...n order to hedge against the 7 - I Lay 4 with $200 (to pay $100 - vig) and to further hedge that lay - I place always working $30 on Hard 4 to bring only bad numbers down to 3:1 and 1:3.

This then gives me a hedge for $100 which is my initial betting spread.

COME OUT ROLL
- Lay 4 - $200
- HW4 - 30
- PASSLINE - $15

Use all 7 dice set and if manage a 7 - it gives $80 profit on roll - until setting a point.."


The first time I read through your fine post my initial thought (before seeing the above sentence) was: He needs to use a 'High7" set for the come out.


If I'm interpreting your Bone Tracker profile correctly(Please correct if I have misconstrued your current BT Profile).

Your current BT Profile from the current dice set from 1500 tosses listed in "decreasing" order of advantage:

LOW7, LOW6, HIGH11, HIGH5, LOW4, HIGH3

Which seems like a very unique BT profile. This is also going with the premise your specific BT profile will transfer from your home table to the various casinos/tables in Vegas.

It is my opinion this (LayingSuperCrossMod) wagering regime comes down to: 4/7, and more specifically the order in which they occur.

Most of the other wagers are so hedged that in the long run you will be diluting your Wins as well as diluting/delaying Losses. Plus the casinos H.E. meter will be perpetually grinding down your buyin.

The problem we have with such a large "Lay($200 on 4) to Do-Side wager ratio" is when we draw down early it is very difficult to get in to positive territory due to so many hits required to just get back to even. For example, we only win $6 or $13 with hits on 5:$21-15F=$6, 6:$28-15=$13, 8:$28-15=$13), ...etc. Of course you may also hit several 7s in a row on your very first come out.
.
It appears your LOW6 profile is one of your strongest attributes(2nd only to LOW7) yet the largest DO wager ($24) is on the 6 with equal $24 also on the 8(also not an advantage#). That 6/8 hedge with a $15-F for the first 2-4 tosses is a significant drain. Though you didnt state your advantage on the Field bet it appears the 6/8 may actually be hedging any F advantage.

If it was my profile and I felt confident this BT profile could be transferred. Then I would be more inclined to just go to a crapless table and buy the (11) at max breakage , w PL wager at couple increments above table min(so you have option to reduce) , and just toss the dice for 11s. If PL goes to one of your several advantage#s(i.e., 11,12,5,3), then take enough odds to make PL+odds = your BUY wager on 11.

If a solo wager is too much Variance (and PL doesnt travel to an advantage# then just ignore it and no odds). You could just buy the second number. Maybe consider buying the 11/12 at max breakage with same approach on PL as above.

Bottomline: I think you are hedging(diluting) away your very healthy (8 SRR).

Thx again for sharing.

Just my opinion /I wish you well in LV. Hopefully you will record rolls and report back.


Cheers,
All the best,
Tgold

DiceSki
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Re: New Modified Layin SuperCross Strategy - Need help to poke holes and Test please

Post by DiceSki » Tue Jun 10, 2025 3:14 pm

Hi TGold

Thank you for your detailed reply - I really appreciate the time and advice.
Thanks for the Crapless suggestion - I will definitely go try that out as well !

Well noted - yes I do use a All 7 set for come out rolls to hopefully hit the Lay a few times.

I have since edited the strategy a bit to get less Iron Cross in there since as you pointed out and everyone is aware that it eats the profits perhaps faster than it helps.

I keep the Field bet just 1-2 rolls in case I hit another number thats not 5/6/8 ... and if its 5/6/8 of course at least its a $6 profit.

Once I have the $20-$30 profit of 2 rolls I move the Field to place another uncovered nr - 9 or 10 --- and then hope to roll and AVOID 4..... and 7... however if from roll 3 onwards 7 comes I break even and can start again.
Since I am even I now Press / collect alternatively - and if we get a few rolls going the profit comes good.. and one I get to $150 I turn off the Lay 4 and the HW 4... since no matter what I am $50- $150 up anyway - and if we get a big roll - There's earning potential with no risk of the Lay loss.

Let's see how it holds up - Flying out Thursday - will definitely report back after - success or failure .. if anyone is interested. And if after a couple of runs it does not transfer with same practice table results - will hop to try your Crapless advice !!

Thanks again for the welcome / help and advice !

Cheers !!

PS- Happy to upload the Bonetracker data if anyone wants to see / analyse -- Also did last sheet with 65 / 56 set - instead of the 21/65 set for around 800 rolls with a bit better 8.42 SRR and 2.7% roll percentage of 3;1 and 1:3 combined.... so lets see ... maybe lady luck is with me this trip :)

DiceSki
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Re: New Modified Layin SuperCross Strategy - Need help to poke holes and Test please

Post by DiceSki » Tue Jun 10, 2025 4:10 pm

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DiceSki
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Re: New Modified Layin SuperCross Strategy - Need help to poke holes and Test please

Post by DiceSki » Tue Jun 10, 2025 4:14 pm

I tried to attach some screenshots if anyone interested.

Thanks again - hopefully some of it transfers to the real tables in 48h.

Kind Regards
DiceSki
Screenshot Charts.jpg
Screenshot Charts.jpg (92.87 KiB) Viewed 712 times
Screenshot Tossstats.jpg
Screenshot Tossstats.jpg (121.95 KiB) Viewed 712 times

220Inside
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Re: New Modified Layin SuperCross Strategy - Need help to poke holes and Test please

Post by 220Inside » Tue Jun 10, 2025 6:16 pm

You should just use the "Forum Post" tab in your BT workbook. Just copy/paste the contents into a message and it will put together a nicely formatted set of tables for your BT data set.

220Inside
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Re: New Modified Layin SuperCross Strategy - Need help to poke holes and Test please

Post by 220Inside » Tue Jun 10, 2025 6:17 pm

What version of BT is this? It looks like an older version.

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DarthNater
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Re: New Modified Layin SuperCross Strategy - Need help to poke holes and Test please

Post by DarthNater » Tue Jun 10, 2025 10:23 pm

220Inside wrote:
Tue Jun 10, 2025 6:17 pm
What version of BT is this? It looks like an older version.
Well its got a DiceTool Tab with MP's stuff, so guess it's a late Maddog version.

Didn't have time to look at the strategy yet, but let's get you upgraded to the latest BT, DN8R
Your lack of faith in The Force disturbs me, Commander.......

DiceSki
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Re: New Modified Layin SuperCross Strategy - Need help to poke holes and Test please

Post by DiceSki » Wed Jun 11, 2025 1:50 am

Hi 220Inside and DarthNater

Thanx for the replies - It is BT 5.6.0 - I am on macbook so it was the only one I managed to find working.
thanx for all the help - and apologies for the double post above I was not aware it uploaded twice.

Kind Regards

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Re: New Modified Layin SuperCross Strategy - Need help to poke holes and Test please

Post by DarthNater » Sun Jun 15, 2025 10:02 pm

DiceSki,
Thanks but there is a MAC Specific version of BT Extended 5.8, it has way more functionality than the Maddog 5.6 and it's Mac ready.
You'll find it in the Bonetracker sub-Forum look for the thread called: Get BoneTracker Extended 5.8 for Mac HERE

Go for it, DN8R
Your lack of faith in The Force disturbs me, Commander.......

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