Are there any professional craps players ?

[Tricky]

Are there any professional craps players? Without naming names ,unless it is public record, just curious to see how many is out there, that actually depend on craps for the majority of their income.

[acpa]

MP meets that definition I believe.

Noah

[wild child]

.
T.

I may know of individuals who may be called "PRO".
Mostly they concentrate on being just a face in the crowd.
While they live O K,they are way other than opulent or obvious to the casual observer.

There may mostly be hobbyists of differing skill level here .
Perhaps a few pros in the mix.

I have knowledge of a few persons feeding the bull dog mostly from DICING, and related casino activities.
Even these folks seem to have tucked $$$ into some
"safe harbor, small business or investment" to insure a predictable cash flow.



W C

[Mad Professor]

...which would mean that all the other guys that Heavy mentioned just the other week, are figments of his imagination?


MP

[heavy]

VDC - you're starting to sound like Rick.

Seriously, though, I played profitably for years before discovering dice influencing. DI just helped me improve my average win. It not only helped me when I was the shooter, but the knowledge I picked up along the way helped me to identify potentially good shooters - and the really terrible ones. It helped me learn to identify streaks and trends - which I firmly believe in. It taught me to bet what the table gives you - which some people disagree with. The list goes on and on.

I purposely sat out on this question initially to see what the responses were. As MP noted - I am aware of several players who earn the majority of their income at the tables. And no, I'm not going to name names in a semi-public forum. It's nobody's business but their own. And no - I don't think anyone out there is currently claiming an SRR of 28. If you believe that then you've been reading the wrong forum.

[heavy]

Okay, everybody pull your horns in.

I mentioned Rick because he continually badgered MP over the 28 SRR comment from years ago - a claim that MP himself has said was based on a relatively small tracking sample. I don't think anyone around here is claiming a long run SRR in that realm,

As for my statement to VDC regarding SR - I was speaking about his penchant for insisting that you could play more or less professionally at craps without ever touching or influencing the dice.

Sports book tickets, by the way, don't really tell us anything about your ability to win at craps, VDC. And I'm not picking on you - just pointing out the obvious. When I hit that $1600 jackpot recently I posted a photo if the payout on the site. That also said nothing about my ability at the dice table. On the other hand, when I posted a photo showing that I'd hit five our of six Fire Bet numbers it did testify to the fact that "hey, maybe this guy is a shooter." Does that mean I am a pro craps player? No. But I am pretty damn good.

The simple fact is (and as VDC demonstrated) there are few "one game" professional gamblers. Most of the full time players I know include games like poker, a little baccarat, a little blackjack, and a goodly amount of sports book action in their total play. Nothing like a little diversification as my broker used to say.


End of the day - the original question was "are there any professional craps players?" I say there are. You just aren't likely to run across many of them.

[Tricky]

Thanks for the responses.
VDC do you share your TrendSetter?

[SHOOTITALL]

I do recall Heavy and MP mentioning some time ago about some groups/gangs/whatever of three or so players that traveled from casino to casino, one a shooter, the other two or so bettors. Whether they still exist, I haven't a clue. Maybe MP and Heavy's memory is better than mine - they have to be. If possible, repost about those folks. sia

[Mad Professor]

Hi SIA,

There are several pro teams still very much on the prowl as we speak; the problem is that H and I both walk a fine line in terms of not unwittingly "outing" them.

There are three East Coast/Northern Circuit teams (with at least one or two players that are on this board as non-posting lurkers)...there is an international US/Asia team (with one player who was/is on this board...also as a non-posting lurker)...there are at least three 'ad-hoc' teams that mostly frequent the Southern Circuit (I believe that two or possibly three of those players are non-posting lurkers here)...and finally there are a few 'independant' at-large pros that are on this board but whom are non-posting lurkers here) who sometimes hook-up with established teams, but mostly ply their trade independantly. One is in WI, one in MI, two in OH, one in MN, one in TX, one in FL, and one or two in MS (or 'thereabouts'' )

Again though, generally they all fall into the "non-posting lurker" category (do you see a trend developing in that continued re-statement? ).


I'm not sure how much the H-man wants to add to this submission or whether he thinks it best to delete even what I've already said here. I'm trying to be as circumspect as possible; but if he chooses to limit this discussion, I'm certainly not going to make a fuss over it.


MP

[heavy]

Well, SIA and I have chatted about this personally and he pretty much knows what I know. I know I've witnessed several of these teams in action over in Shreveport/Bossier through the years. Also, Wild Child stumbled across a crew down in the Gulf market a few years back. But MP is dead on - we're not going to "out" anyone on the forum. Those who want to post about their adventures are more than welcome to - but I doubt that we'll get any takers.

[Mad Professor]

There's one player on the A/C-Macau-Singapore-South Africa-Bahamas team that H and I both know.

That team has a dedicated b-roll in the mid-low eight-figure range. I believe the principal shooter in that group plays the 'young nephew' role. As far as I know, they only play about once a month for a two or three-day stretch; then they take the rest of the month off. It's a wholly Maybach Landaulet lifestyle.


MP

[wild child]

.
I may have seen some other "TEAMS" prior to the one I posted about before getting some understanding
of what a "Controlled" or as is now called "INFLUENCED" Dice Toss resembles..
( that came about the weekend I first stood at a craps table with Heavy).........Those folks have it together in an ART FORM... They are STREET WISE PERFORMERS functioning as a disciplined machine..

For the several years of my DICING CAREER prior,I would hear oohs and aaaahaas that "THIS GUY or THAT GUY" is a GOOD SHOOTER: Whatever that meant. Few were............In those salad days ,I seldom as in almost never even touched the dice,let alone tossed them with any intent. Yet I had moments stretching to weeks and months of good luck and DAME FORTUNE smiled upon my humble self.

Over the past eight or seven years I have been privileged to catch their act perhaps five or four times.
Even twice in Las Vegas, with single appearances in "OTHER MARKETS".......It would be an embellishment to say we had dinner together ,other than we were once in the same casino restaurant at the same time ,however at different tables.......Teamsters are not people i would bring up that subject and expect to be brought in from the cold.

My sincere feeling is there is an importance in being able to recognize a DICE INFLUENCE- R from the faces in a crowded craps table..from the also ran,the wanta-beez , and the down right dangerous time and money wasters.

Bless those best able to toss a hand consistently.

Those not yet able are better served to learn to chart both the CRAPS TABLE and INDIVIDUAL SHOOTERS.

Just me saying

W C

The people able to pull together are indeed small in number.. Most who attempt to team get caught up in ego fests and "PERSONALITY CONFLICTS" or some other "HUMAN DYNAMICS" failure.

[heavy]

I've told the story many times about watching a player step up to an empty table, buy in for two hundred, put one hundred on the pass line and one hundred on the eleven, then toss the eleven, pick up his winnings and walk away. Looked pretty professional to me.

[Mad Professor]

...and it wasn't Hog2000, right.


MP

[heavy]

As far as I know I have never stepped up to the table with SR, so I have nothing but third hand reports on his ability as a shooter. Of course, he himself frequently bragged about his ability to make money off random rollers and he stated that he rarely shoots the dice because of his ability to profit from others' hands. All of my issues with SR revolved around his continued badgering of certain members of this community, past inflammatory comments about Mad Professor, Irishsetter, myself, and others made on a forum he moderates, and the fact that I received many complaints about his posts from other forum members. I do not mind sharply debated topics. I do mind personal attacks on others (and myself) and disrespect for the Terms of Service of the forum. Simply put, I don't have time for such bullshit.

As for the posting of any betting strategies on the forum - I have no problem as long as they are properly categorized. VDC - your Trend Setter sports betting strategy belongs in the Games Other Then Craps sub-board. If you wish to start a thread there I have no problem with it. However, the Terms of Service of the forum specifically state that posts advertising any gambling system, strategy, or advantage play technique for sale are forbidden.

I firmly appreciate the efforts of others and their desire to help other players succeed. I'll simply suggest they pay their dues and pony up the cost of developing their own websites and (if they can find the time for it) their own forums. You know the old saying. Build it and they will come. If, of course, you have something worth coming to.

End of discussion.

-H

[heavy]

I supposed I could mention that I am in receipt of a number of session reports from a team of African American players - two brothers and their father - and a cousin or two who occasionally join them on the road. These guys are experts at mis-direction and dice sliding. Yeah, that's another term for cheating. But they're also damn good shooters. I've been trying to coax them into joining the forum, but they're not really "computer people."