Bonetracker

The forum name says it all. You're new to the game of craps and don't have a clue where to begin. Pass Line. Don't Pass. Come. Don't Come. Hardways. Big Six. Big Eight. The Horn. Good Grief! Sounds like back when you were trying to make a decision about what to do in the back seat on that first car date. Well never fear! There are a few folks around here who have spent enough time at the tables to be able to answer just about any question you may have. So step right up and get a clue!

Moderators: 22Inside, DarthNater

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Lkwd
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Re: Bonetracker

Post by Lkwd » Thu Aug 13, 2020 12:14 pm

Big O wrote:
Wed Aug 12, 2020 10:01 pm
At the risk of breaking the no politics rule, ALL DICE TOSSES MATTER. :D

I Agree. 100% get logged in.


Lkwd

Parson
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Re: Bonetracker

Post by Parson » Thu Aug 13, 2020 1:07 pm

I guess I stand Corrected ... but I won't post any results .... they are to unimpressive anyway (disclaimer or otherwise).
If your gonna color up, there needs to be paint on the brush.

House of Orange
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Re: Bonetracker

Post by House of Orange » Thu Aug 13, 2020 1:14 pm

Lkwd wrote:
Thu Aug 13, 2020 12:14 pm
Big O wrote:
Wed Aug 12, 2020 10:01 pm
At the risk of breaking the no politics rule, ALL DICE TOSSES MATTER. :D

I Agree. 100% get logged in.


Lkwd
With the emoje, I assume Big O is being facetious.

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DarthNater
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Re: Bonetracker

Post by DarthNater » Thu Aug 13, 2020 3:29 pm

onebok wrote:
Thu Aug 13, 2020 10:35 am
1. A valid toss flies towards the backwall, hits the deck before contacting the backwall and shortly comes to rest. Forget those designer shots that
circle around the sides and corners. Let's keep this very basic.

2. While anything the dice hits along this path is legal in the casino, the practice rig/table is where one hones a valid DI toss. To hone a valid DI toss means that you're working towards an ideal where the bones hit the deck before hitting the backwall, followed by coming to rest near the backwall. In addition, they should not hit anything that interrupts the movement of either die from the moment you release them to the moment they come to rest. Of course we also need to avoid the seven but let's assume the complexities of grips, trajectories, etc. are all taking place in the honing of a valid DI toss.

3. BT is a statistical tool to take CONSECUTIVE dice results as input and provide analyses that characterize the input in various ways in order
to enhance casino results.

4. If you attempt a valid DI toss and one or both of the dice
- hit the side wall before coming to rest;
- bounce off the rig/table;
- hit a die left on the table from previous attempts;
- hit the puck, chips, stick, chair-rail, floor, etc.;
then you simply do not know what that particular die result is from your own influence.

Your own influence is what skills you hone such that the dice result is unambiguously from your skill and not from having, let's say, a collision with a puck that stops the die prematurely. Moreover, you would never want to PRACTICE trying to get that non-seven by first hitting the chair rail!

5. You simply cannot enter UNKNOWNS into Bonetracker and expect it to reflect reality-based skill. You cannot practice DI as a skill and have the dice both be legal AND make extraneous collisions and then load the results into BT and let BT assume these results are valid and reflect ONLY your DI when they also reflect unknown influences. Most of these unknowns would be SEVENS but were not recorded as such.

6. If you say, "I'll only count my tosses that didn't make extraneous contacts",the result is still bogus. Why? Because the result you did not put into BT could have easily been a SEVEN if that die had not made an extraneous contact. Remember that the trick with DI is to look at CONSECUTIVE rolls between sevens. An SRR that includes any UNKNOWNS among those recorded rolls would likely wreck anyone's CHI-SQUARE or SRR if they were flagged and replaced with sevens.

7. It's much harder to attain a reliable edge in craps than most here think.
The casinos are not worried for obvious reasons.
I really like a lot of the thoughts in this post, as Onebok makes some really good points, especially getting the chips, previously tossed dice, pucks, sticks away from your practice area. That's one reason I only practice with 2-3 pairs of dice.

Yeah, I saw the All Dice Tosses Matter post (lol), but for assessing YOUR influence and transposing are you really going to count the die that flies one foot and deadcats? I think not. Sure this may be blasphemy to many here; but as we said yesterday there is no bet on the layout for Primary Face Hits. So while I may lose my grip once in X per y number of tosses, both in practice and/or in the casino - for those in practice sessions why would I transpose a FUBARed toss - into my analytics? And in the casino when the toss Fubars - then its random and I'm looking at a 1 in 6 wipeout.

Now, however, if it flies to the LZ and deadcats, then count it. If your spin stops it short of the wall, count it. If it hits the wall on the fly - then you shouldn't be bonetracking - go back to working on your toss. If it bounces funny off the wall - count it - that happens-the dimonds are there for a reason. Oh and if any of those just mentioned tosses result in a seven - count it - don't rationalize it; you're gonna get sevens, and frequently they transpose into something different. If it bounces off your table - don't count it. ***Also if you are losing your grip in practice - then fix that - as X really needs to be zero.

Get your toss stable and repeatable, this is advanced stuff, not first day at the practice rig stuff. The transposition capability in BT is awesome, so get your toss in order - then let 'er roll.

Also, yesterday I got a text about recording tosses, I use pencil and paper; then after the session I click and use the digital entry tool in BT. I find this easier, as switching between right brain & left brain and/or the avoiding that interruption, helps me focus in practice, DN8R
Your lack of faith in The Force disturbs me, Commander.......

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DarthNater
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Re: Bonetracker

Post by DarthNater » Thu Aug 13, 2020 3:33 pm

Parson wrote:
Thu Aug 13, 2020 1:07 pm
I guess I stand Corrected ... but I won't post any results .... they are to unimpressive anyway (disclaimer or otherwise).
Parson,
We've seen your toss and results. There's no need to post your numbers, just keep at it and keep those trip reports coming - those are the results that matter

DN8R
Your lack of faith in The Force disturbs me, Commander.......

22Inside
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Re: Bonetracker

Post by 22Inside » Thu Aug 13, 2020 4:09 pm

DarthNater wrote:
Thu Aug 13, 2020 3:29 pm
Yeah, I saw the All Dice Tosses Matter post (lol), but for assessing YOUR influence and transposing are you really going to count the die that flies one foot and deadcats? I think not. Sure this may be blasphemy to many here; but as we said yesterday there is no bet on the layout for Primary Face Hits. So while I may lose my grip once in X per y number of tosses, both in practice and/or in the casino - for those in practice sessions why would I transpose a FUBARed toss - into my analytics? And in the casino when the toss Fubars - then its random and I'm looking at a 1 in 6 wipeout.

Now, however, if it flies to the LZ and deadcats, then count it. If your spin stops it short of the wall, count it. If it hits the wall on the fly - then you shouldn't be bonetracking - go back to working on your toss. If it bounces funny off the wall - count it - that happens-the diamonds are there for a reason. Oh and if any of those just mentioned tosses result in a seven - count it - don't rationalize it; you're gonna get sevens, and frequently they transpose into something different. If it bounces off your table - don't count it. ***Also if you are losing your grip in practice - then fix that - as X really needs to be zero.

Get your toss stable and repeatable, this is advanced stuff, not first day at the practice rig stuff. The transposition capability in BT is awesome, so get your toss in order - then let 'er roll.

Also, yesterday I got a text about recording tosses, I use pencil and paper; then after the session I click and use the digital entry tool in BT. I find this easier, as switching between right brain & left brain and/or the avoiding that interruption, helps me focus in practice, DN8R
I'm of the same mind as DN8R. I use good old pen and paper to record the rolls in practice then enter them into BT afterwards. The temptation to get distracted by BT after each roll is too great, IMO.

I'm learning not to sweat the 7's in practice as well. Yes they happen, but one of the things about using BT is not just to confirm the data and influence for the dice set you think is the best one for you, but to help identify alternate set(s) that can make your results even better.

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Lkwd
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Re: Bonetracker

Post by Lkwd » Thu Aug 13, 2020 5:36 pm

I agree with the recording your tosses first, login them in second.

Not sure if most know this, but the 11th tab in on Bonetracker is the login worksheets. The print out sheet is 5 columns wide, 36 recording
slots for a page total of 180. I will print out a dozen sheets at a time. I like the fact that I try to do at least 36 tosses (1 column ) per
session. Once I get a page or 2 its either 180 or 360 tosses. Entering that quantity into BoneTracker I get a better feel, for me,
as to how I am doing.

During a session when logging them in, you do see your pattern at that moment and often I try to toss as if I am in live play to see how that hand or several hands would have worked out. Mentally I still focus on the grip, toss, etc but it is fun to see how things would evolve at a live table.

I cringe at the 4 or 5 PSO's in a row but then if after those multiple PSO's I crank off a 20-30 roll practice hand it makes me realize that it does or does not happen in live play and need to stay focused to see what caused the PSO's. Were the PSO's grip issues or lack of concentration and was the long practice hand all quality tossing or the benefit of a home forgiving practice rig. The 2 or 3 total pages of the worksheets logged into BoneTracker will let me know.

A bit long winded but I am overdue for one.

Lkwd.

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Big O
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Re: Bonetracker

Post by Big O » Thu Aug 13, 2020 7:26 pm

With the emoje, I assume Big O is being facetious.
Yes just my poor attempt at humor.

I do believe all tosses matter, they just dont all count. However, i think it is a slippery slope when you start picking and choosing which tosses to count. Obviously i wouldnt count a die that went on the floor. Sometimes i try to have live play scenarios but If i am tracking rolls there wouldnt be any other dice or or anything else in my way to hit. I have only tracked from SL1-2 or SR1-2 so i never toss one off the table or into the rack so i count all of my tosses. All strokes count, all arrows released count all tosses count. If you want to know where you stand it counts.

If you are having to decide which tosses to count the information you get from tracking probably isnt going to help much anyway. Other than tell you that you arent influencing the dice.
"if it was easy anyone could do it"

Parson
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Re: Bonetracker

Post by Parson » Fri Aug 14, 2020 9:09 pm

Just as a matter of a point here, i would suggest that you make sure you have the correct dice settings on the toss page that is the same as the one you are tossing ..... dont ask me how i got smart enough to figure this out .... but i think it gives you more accurate results.
If your gonna color up, there needs to be paint on the brush.

22Inside
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Re: Bonetracker

Post by 22Inside » Fri Aug 14, 2020 10:04 pm

Parson wrote:
Fri Aug 14, 2020 9:09 pm
Just as a matter of a point here, i would suggest that you make sure you have the correct dice settings on the toss page that is the same as the one you are tossing ..... dont ask me how i got smart enough to figure this out .... but i think it gives you more accurate results.
If your reference set is not representative of what you are tossing with, all of the axis calculations will be incorrect :-)

House of Orange
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Re: Bonetracker

Post by House of Orange » Fri Aug 14, 2020 11:13 pm

So how do folks recording different sniping sets in the casino transpose those results into the reference set?

22Inside
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Re: Bonetracker

Post by 22Inside » Fri Aug 14, 2020 11:27 pm

You can't. A book of rolls in BT must use the same set. You would need to hand transpose each roll that was tossed with a different set and normalize them all to a single one.

House of Orange
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Re: Bonetracker

Post by House of Orange » Sat Aug 15, 2020 12:36 am

Of course you can, I was hoping for another way. You simply get another copy of BT as your transpose copy. It will transpose any set into your reference set. Than copy and paste into your original BT. A lot of work, but eye opening results.

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DarthNater
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Re: Bonetracker

Post by DarthNater » Sat Aug 15, 2020 12:41 am

22Inside wrote:
Fri Aug 14, 2020 11:27 pm
You can't. A book of rolls in BT must use the same set. You would need to hand transpose each roll that was tossed with a different set and normalize them all to a single one.
Actually there is a way to do this with Bonetracker, by making multiple copies of BT on your computer. I am doing this for my different books, naming them, say, "N8BT with 6345 set", and/or "N8BT with 4226 set - Straight Out", etc. Make a BT file for each of your sets, then on the Transpose Tab in Columns X thru AO (User Perm 1 thru 6) you can place up to six sets for transposing.... Then "unhide" rows 33 thru 757 and you can see what each transposed number is from your roll data.

I know that sounds geeky hard, but its really not too bad, and if you muck it up (unlikely), then just make another copy of BT and restart.....

DN8R
Your lack of faith in The Force disturbs me, Commander.......

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coaster
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Re: Bonetracker

Post by coaster » Sat Aug 15, 2020 8:01 am

You are correct HoO, 22 and Nate.

I have a couple of extra BT copies on my desk top that I use for that exact purpose. I use them most often on days when I am testing my sniper sets. I named them extra BT, new extra BT and when needed a 3rd simply XX. I always record every shot with pen and paper first. When I change sets to experiment with sniper sets I make a note on my record sheet as to the set change. Then when I record my handwritten data to BT make the changes using my extra BT copies. Pretty quick and easy once you do it a few times.

Unfortunately, I don't even attempt to try to record BT style (left and right die separately) in the casinos. I find it impossible for me to be able to track the dice accurately from SO position. Maybe from S1 I'd have a chance but from 12 or 14 feet I can't even see the pips on the dice. I've also noticed during practice that for me it takes my focus away from making my best effort toss when I try to focus on watching one die to try to see a left or right. Unless the left/right decision is perfectly correct I don't think that information is beneficial.

Once I'm "working" in the real world I want to have only a few things to concentrate on each toss. If I'm not getting the signature numbers I should be with a certain set that has been verified from practice and in casino results. That tells me I need to think a bit more about what I'm doing. Usually, just focusing on about three ideas will remind me what I might not be doing consistently. My first thoughts are releasing thumb, feeling the dice roll off fingers and follow through (reaching out for the target for me).

Coaster

22Inside
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Re: Bonetracker

Post by 22Inside » Sat Aug 15, 2020 8:13 am

DarthNater wrote:
Sat Aug 15, 2020 12:41 am
22Inside wrote:
Fri Aug 14, 2020 11:27 pm
You can't. A book of rolls in BT must use the same set. You would need to hand transpose each roll that was tossed with a different set and normalize them all to a single one.
Actually there is a way to do this with Bonetracker, by making multiple copies of BT on your computer. I am doing this for my different books, naming them, say, "N8BT with 6345 set", and/or "N8BT with 4226 set - Straight Out", etc. Make a BT file for each of your sets, then on the Transpose Tab in Columns X thru AO (User Perm 1 thru 6) you can place up to six sets for transposing.... Then "unhide" rows 33 thru 757 and you can see what each transposed number is from your roll data.

I know that sounds geeky hard, but its really not too bad, and if you muck it up (unlikely), then just make another copy of BT and restart.....

DN8R
Yes, this is definitely a valid way to do this and let BT do the transposition work for you by having a separate book for each unique set. Thanks Nate. I was answering the question from the perspective of a single BT book.

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DarthNater
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Re: Bonetracker

Post by DarthNater » Sat Aug 15, 2020 9:40 am

22Inside wrote:
Sat Aug 15, 2020 8:13 am
Yes, this is definitely a valid way to do this and let BT do the transposition work for you by having a separate book for each unique set. Thanks Nate. I was answering the question from the perspective of a single BT book.
No worries, buddy, I know that was question you were answering. I have over 50 copies of BT on my laptop. Most are my mega-version using your transposition method and several Beta versions for all kinds of stuff, not to mention the 20+ copies where I was learning how to tweak the VBA macros during shutdown/lockdown.

The point is with multiple copies you can really leverage the core tool so much more, DN8R

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heavy
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Re: Bonetracker

Post by heavy » Sat Aug 15, 2020 1:33 pm

My problem is that my laptop is so ancient it barely chugs along even with one copy of BT on it. LOL. I recently installed a solid state hard drive to run my operating system on and kept the old hard drive in it just for back up files, etc. but the SS drive is on the small side, so there are still issues. One of these days I'll plug in a larger SS drive - but there was a shortage of them when I put the current one in. There just weren't any to be found unless you were willing to pay a premium price. Yeah, you can get one through one of the on-line sites for a buck-fifty or so - and sometimes on sale for under $100 - but I'm a little gun shy with some of those sites and manufacturers. I've bought enough cheap Chinese flash drives to know the fail rate.

One of the issues with BoneTracker I'd like to see addressed in some future version is the inability to differentiate between Come Out sevens and Point Cycle sevens. It would be nice if BT would recognize that not all sevens are "bad" sevens. Seems like that would be a fairly easy script to write, but then again, I'm not the Excel expert in the house . . .
"Get in, get up, and get gone."
- Heavy

Parson
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Re: Bonetracker

Post by Parson » Sat Aug 15, 2020 3:24 pm

Maybe some thing like an SOR. Seven out ration?
If your gonna color up, there needs to be paint on the brush.

rhythm roller
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Re: Bonetracker

Post by rhythm roller » Sat Aug 15, 2020 3:35 pm

I must be missing something on the need for a "good 7" program in bonetracker. If I use a different set for my come out tosses then I just use a different worksheet set up in bonetracker for that set. Then on point cycle tosses I revert back to my original point cycle worksheet. Even if I toss a 7 on a come out with my point cycle set then it is a lucky 7 but still a bad 7. Curious what greater info would be gained from a "good 7" addition to the program. Must be greater insight into something that I am completely overlooking. More explanation, please. 😀 Thanks!
"The difference between try and triumph is a little umph."

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