When a Comeout roll becomes a Put Bet!

[Consultant]

What dice set do you use on a Come Bet?

• With a random shooter:
• The power of the Come Bet on the come out roll are the eight wins on the Naturals 7 and 11.
• The losses on the Come Bet on the come out roll are the four losses on the Craps numbers 2. 3. and 12.
• There are four more wins than losses on comeout roll on a Come Bet.
• You may take Odds on the established Point.

• With a controlled shooter:
• The power of the Come Bet on the come out roll should change with the dice set.
• The shooter already has an established Line bet in order to make a Come Bet.
• The controlled shooter now attempts to not roll a seven, but to set a Point!
• Is this not in essence a Put Bet?
• With the Hardway Set, there should be no Naturals and no Craps.
• There are no more wins than losses on comeout roll on a Come Bet.
• You would then take Odds on the established Point.

What dice set do you use on a Come Bet?

[Consultant]

Put Bet:

• A Put Bet is a bet made on the Pass line or in the Come box.
• The bet is made after a point has already been established.
• The object of the Put bet is to use it to take even larger Odds bet to offset the House Advantage on the Point Number.
• For example, a $5 is put on the Pass line after the Point is already set.
• Now large amount of Odds are needed and are put behind the Pass line at true Odds.
• The plan is to get a better game than is available with the Place Bet.

• Is this a good strategy?

[Consultant]

Here is a Chart of the house advantage for a Put Bet without Odds.
[tr][td bgcolor=#ff0000 colspan=4 width=100 height=50 align=center valign=middle][size=150][color=#000000]Put Bet[/color][/size][/td][/tr] [tr][td bgcolor=#c0c0c0 colspan=1 width=100 height=50 align=center valign=middle][size=150][color=#000000]Put Bet Odds[/color][/size][/td][td bgcolor=#c0c0c0 colspan=1 width=100 height=50 align=center valign=middle][size=150][color=#000000]Point 4 or 10[/color][/size][/tds][td bgcolor=#c0c0c0 colspan=1 width=100 height=50 align=center valign=middle][size=150][color=#000000]Point 5 or 9[/color][/size][/td][td bgcolor=#c0c0c0 colspan=1 width=100 height=50 align=center valign=middle][size=150][color=#000000]Point 6 or 8[/color][/size][/td][/tr] [tr][td bgcolor=#ffffff colspan=5 width=100 height=50 align=center valign=middle][size=150][color=#000000]House Advantage[/color][/size][/td][/tr] [tr][td bgcolor=#ffffff colspan=1 width=100 height=50 align=center valign=middle][size=150][color=#000000]0[/color][/size][/td][td bgcolor=#ffffff colspan=1 width=100 height=50 align=center valign=middle][size=150][color=#000000]33.33%[/color][/size][/td][td bgcolor=#ffffff colspan=1 width=100 height=50 align=center valign=middle][size=150][color=#000000]20.00%[/color][/size][/td][td bgcolor=#ffffff colspan=1 width=100 height=50 align=center valign=middle][size=150][color=#000000]9.09%[/color][/size][/td][/tr]

• If you do not take the Odds bet with the Put Bet you are 'putting' yourself in a big hole!
• You make a Put Bet to be able to make higher Odds bets.

• Payout is 2 to 1 on the four and ten
• Payout is 3 to 2 on the five and nine
• Payout is 6 to 5 on the six and eight

• You must take Odds with the Put bet to make it a viable bet
• How many Odds would make it a good bet?

[SHOOTITALL]

Sounds like making a bad bet worse.

[Mad Professor]

Hi SIA,

If Consultant showed the other side of the Put-bet coin, like employing >5x-Odds; readers would quickly see that what he has painted above as a bad bet, suddenly becomes quite a bit better than a Place-bet on the same box-number.

For example, comparing the house-edge against a $5 Put-bet on the 9 when it is backed with $100 in 20x-Odds, vs. $105 Place-bet on the 9 would show a +5.4% better return-on-investment for the Put-bet over the Place-bet.


MP

[Consultant]

Put Bet Table Here is a Table to analyze the Put Bet. Check it out. The blue background equals the Place Bet House Advantage.

• The House Advantage is very large with no Odds! Red
• The House Advantage approximately is equal to the Place Bets at 4 or 5 times Odds. Blue
• Money at risk becomes high.
• There is still a House advantage at 100 times Odds. Yellow
• Place Bets and Buy Bets should be considered to lower the House Advantage.

[tr][td bgcolor=#ff0000 colspan=4 width=100 height=50 align=center valign=middle][size=150][color=#000000]Put Bet[/color][/size][/tds][/tr] [tr][td bgcolor=#c0c0c0 colspan=1 width=100 height=50 align=center valign=middle][size=150][color=#000000]Put Bet Odds[/color][/size][/td][td bgcolor=#c0c0c0 colspan=1 width=100 height=50 align=center valign=middle][size=150][color=#000000]Point 4 or 10[/color][/size][/tds][td bgcolor=#c0c0c0 colspan=1 width=100 height=50 align=center valign=middle][size=150][color=#000000]Point 5 or 9[/color][/size][/td][td bgcolor=#c0c0c0 colspan=1 width=100 height=50 align=center valign=middle][size=150][color=#000000]Point 6 or 8[/color][/size][/td][/tr] [tr][td bgcolor=#ffffff colspan=5 width=100 height=50 align=center valign=middle][size=150][color=#000000]House Advantage[/color][/size][/td][/tr] [tr][td bgcolor=#ff0000 colspan=1 width=100 height=50 align=center valign=middle][size=150][color=#000000]0[/color][/size][/td][td bgcolor=#ff0000 colspan=1 width=100 height=50 align=center valign=middle][size=150][color=#000000]33.33%[/color][/size][/td][td bgcolor=#ff0000 colspan=1 width=100 height=50 align=center valign=middle][size=150][color=#000000]20.00%[/color][/size][/td][td bgcolor=#ff0000 colspan=1 width=100 height=50 align=center valign=middle][size=150][color=#000000]9.09%[/color][/size][/td][/tr][tr][td bgcolor=#ffffff colspan=1 width=100 height=50 align=center valign=middle][size=150][color=#000000]1[/color][/size][/td][td bgcolor=#ffffff colspan=1 width=100 height=50 align=center valign=middle][size=150][color=#000000]16.67%[/color][/size][/td][td bgcolor=#ffffff colspan=1 width=100 height=50 align=center valign=middle][size=150][color=#000000]10.00%[/color][/size][/td][td bgcolor=#ffffff colspan=1 width=100 height=50 align=center valign=middle][size=150][color=#000000]4.55%[/color][/size][/td][/tr][tr][td bgcolor=#ffffff colspan=1 width=100 height=50 align=center valign=middle][size=150][color=#000000]2[/color][/size][/td][td bgcolor=#ffffff colspan=1 width=100 height=50 align=center valign=middle][size=150][color=#000000]11.11%[/color][/size][/td][td bgcolor=#ffffff colspan=1 width=100 height=50 align=center valign=middle][size=150][color=#000000]6.67%[/color][/size][/td][td bgcolor=#ffffff colspan=1 width=100 height=50 align=center valign=middle][size=150][color=#000000]3.03%[/color][/size][/td][/tr][tr][td bgcolor=#ffffff colspan=1 width=100 height=50 align=center valign=middle][size=150][color=#000000]3[/color][/size][/td][td bgcolor=#ffffff colspan=1 width=100 height=50 align=center valign=middle][size=150][color=#000000]8.33%[/color][/size][/td][td bgcolor=#ffffff colspan=1 width=100 height=50 align=center valign=middle][size=150][color=#000000]5.00%[/color][/size][/td][td bgcolor=#ffffff colspan=1 width=100 height=50 align=center valign=middle][size=150][color=#000000]2.27%[/color][/size][/td][/tr][tr][td bgcolor=#40BFFF colspan=1 width=100 height=50 align=center valign=middle][size=150][color=#000000]4[/color][/size][/td][td bgcolor=#40BFFF colspan=1 width=100 height=50 align=center valign=middle][size=150][color=#000000]6.67%[/color][/size][/td][td bgcolor=#40BFFF colspan=1 width=100 height=50 align=center valign=middle][size=150][color=#000000]4.00%[/color][/size][/td][td bgcolor=#ffffff colspan=1 width=100 height=50 align=center valign=middle][size=150][color=#000000]1.82%[/color][/size][/td][/tr][tr][td bgcolor=#ffffff colspan=1 width=100 height=50 align=center valign=middle][size=150][color=#000000]5[/color][/size][/td][td bgcolor=#ffffff colspan=1 width=100 height=50 align=center valign=middle][size=150][color=#000000]5.56%[/color][/size][/td][td bgcolor=#ffffff colspan=1 width=100 height=50 align=center valign=middle][size=150][color=#000000]3.33%[/color][/size][/td][td bgcolor=#40BFFF colspan=1 width=100 height=50 align=center valign=middle][size=150][color=#000000]1.52%[/color][/size][/td][/tr][tr][td bgcolor=#ffffff colspan=1 width=100 height=50 align=center valign=middle][size=150][color=#000000]6[/color][/size][/td][td bgcolor=#ffffff colspan=1 width=100 height=50 align=center valign=middle][size=150][color=#000000]4.76%[/color][/size][/td][td bgcolor=#ffffff colspan=1 width=100 height=50 align=center valign=middle][size=150][color=#000000]2.86%[/color][/size][/td][td bgcolor=#ffffff colspan=1 width=100 height=50 align=center valign=middle][size=150][color=#000000]1.30%[/color][/size][/td][/tr][tr][td bgcolor=#ffffff colspan=1 width=100 height=50 align=center valign=middle][size=150][color=#000000]7[/color][/size][/td][td bgcolor=#ffffff colspan=1 width=100 height=50 align=center valign=middle][size=150][color=#000000]4.17%[/color][/size][/td][td bgcolor=#ffffff colspan=1 width=100 height=50 align=center valign=middle][size=150][color=#000000]2.50%[/color][/size][/td][td bgcolor=#ffffff colspan=1 width=100 height=50 align=center valign=middle][size=150][color=#000000]1.14%[/color][/size][/td][/tr][tr][td bgcolor=#ffffff colspan=1 width=100 height=50 align=center valign=middle][size=150][color=#000000]8[/color][/size][/td][td bgcolor=#ffffff colspan=1 width=100 height=50 align=center valign=middle][size=150][color=#000000]3.70%[/color][/size][/td][td bgcolor=#ffffff colspan=1 width=100 height=50 align=center valign=middle][size=150][color=#000000]2.22%[/color][/size][/td][td bgcolor=#ffffff colspan=1 width=100 height=50 align=center valign=middle][size=150][color=#000000]1.01%[/color][/size][/td][/tr][tr][td bgcolor=#ffffff colspan=1 width=100 height=50 align=center valign=middle][size=150][color=#000000]9[/color][/size][/td][td bgcolor=#ffffff colspan=1 width=100 height=50 align=center valign=middle][size=150][color=#000000]3.33%[/color][/size][/td][td bgcolor=#ffffff colspan=1 width=100 height=50 align=center valign=middle][size=150][color=#000000]2.00%[/color][/size][/td][td bgcolor=#ffffff colspan=1 width=100 height=50 align=center valign=middle][size=150][color=#000000]0.91%[/color][/size][/td][/tr][tr][td bgcolor=#ffffff colspan=1 width=100 height=50 align=center valign=middle][size=150][color=#000000]10[/color][/size][/td][td bgcolor=#ffffff colspan=1 width=100 height=50 align=center valign=middle][size=150][color=#000000]3.03%[/color][/size][/td][td bgcolor=#ffffff colspan=1 width=100 height=50 align=center valign=middle][size=150][color=#000000]1.82%[/color][/size][/td][td bgcolor=#ffffff colspan=1 width=100 height=50 align=center valign=middle][size=150][color=#000000]0.83%[/color][/size][/td][/tr][tr][td bgcolor=#FFFF40 colspan=1 width=100 height=50 align=center valign=middle][size=150][color=#000000]100[/color][/size][/td][td bgcolor=#FFFF40 colspan=1 width=100 height=50 align=center valign=middle][size=150][color=#000000]0.33%[/color][/size][/td][td bgcolor=#FFFF40 colspan=1 width=100 height=50 align=center valign=middle][size=150][color=#000000]0.20%[/color][/size][/td][td bgcolor=#FFFF40 colspan=1 width=100 height=50 align=center valign=middle][size=150][color=#000000]0.09%[/color][/size][/td][/tr][tr][td bgcolor=#c0c0c0 colspan=1 width=100 height=50 align=center valign=middle][color=#c0c0c0]High[/color][/td][td bgcolor=#c0c0c0 colspan=1 width=100 height=50 align=center valign=middle][color=#c0c0c0]Odds[/color][/td][td bgcolor=#c0c0c0 colspan=1 width=100 height=50 align=center valign=middle][color=#c0c0c0]can be[/color][/td][td bgcolor=#c0c0c0 colspan=1 width=100 height=50 align=center valign=middle][color=#c0c0c0]expensive![/color][/td][/tr]

[Consultant]

Mad Professor said: If Consultant showed the other side of the Put-bet coin, like employing >5x-Odds; readers would quickly see that what he has painted above as a bad bet, suddenly becomes quite a bit better than a Place-bet on the same box-number.

Done!
Mad Professor. I won't attempt to mislead anyone on this message board. In fact if you want I'll quit posting!

It took me some time this morning to post the chart as your phpBBCODE is a pain to manage. I was busy doing that while you were posting.

Most of the Casinos that I find in my area offer only 3-4-5 times Odds or 5 times Odds.

[wild child]

M P


If Consultant were ready to BUY BET the 4 and or 10 for $100 ,he would be better having PUT Bet
them....... How about a PUT BET on the 5 and or SIX of $5 PUT FLAT with $80 or $100 ODDS

Me thinks the SIX and 8 may require a greater wager to net better results by PERCENTAGE

KNOW

W C

[Consultant]

If Consultant were ready to BUY BET the 4 and or 10 for $100 ,he would be better having PUT Bet
them....... How about a PUT BET on the 5 and or SIX of $5 PUT FLAT with $80 or $100 ODDS

$5 PUT FLAT needs a table with 20 times Odds for a $100 Odds Bet. That is not available in many areas!

Why do I get the feeling that everyone here would like Consultant to disappear. That can be arranged!

[SHOOTITALL]

Not from me. I play a different game from most folks. When you are on the PL and have a point established, you already have the worst of it. I am basically a darksider. So, if I lay odds after the point, I am basically weaking a strong position. On the other side, you may be strengthening a poor position. Some like chocolate, some like vanilla. I suppose what I am getting at is that one cannot put out enough odds money to get the right side to a zero HA.

[Mad Professor]

Hi Consultant,

In a message-board format, I think it's probably quite easy to misread ones intent. I'm not the soulless, black-hearted tyrant that I might sometimes appear as.

I personally think that your charts are useful and well-executed; and I see no need for you to curtail your activities. It would appear that the feedback you are getting so far, seems to be even-handed and without malice.

So, carry on at your leisure.


MP

[Consultant]

Thank you Mad Professor.

I have no malice or evil intent.

Did you find the Easter Egg in the Put Bet Chart?

[Consultant]

• This topic was posted in order to ascertain the way in which Come Bettors establish a Point.
• The shooter already has an established Line bet in order to make a Come Bet.
• The controlled shooter now attempts to not roll a seven, but to set a new Point with the Come!
• Is this not in essence a Put Bet?

If I asked most Come Bettors if they would ever make a Put Bet instead of a Come Bet, they usually deny ever doing that. They also give me a look of disgust for entertaining such a thought. They assume that I do not know the math for a Put Bet.
Apparently, I did not get my thought across, as no one has offered an opinion or shown me the error of my ways(and I do make errors).
My logic is not always logical.

[memo]

Yo, Consultant

You seem to have a bit different way of looking at things. Maybe from a slightly different angle than I am used to seeing it. Please continue. I find it enlightening and informative. Perspective broadening.
Maybe what you see as negative, is in essence. some of us trying to digest the thought.

My interpretation of the first part of this thread was that you had more coming...A teaser
What I got from MP (my interpretation, I am not trying to speak for him) was a statement in support and anticipating further extrapolation. Funny about these threads (go back and read it) I think one can interpret it in many ways....Depending on the view point

Welcome to the board. Your view point is interesting.

Memo

[Consultant]

The true odds varies with the point, the payoff varies as well. The table shows how much a winning Free Odds bet is paid.

[tr][td bgcolor=#FF0000 colspan=3 width=100 height=50 align=center valign=middle][size=150][color=#000000]Free Odds Bets[/color][/size][/td][/tr] [tr][td bgcolor=#c0c0c0 colspan=3 width=100 height=50 align=center valign=middle][size=150][color=#000000]The Point Payout Example[/color][/size][/td][/tr][tr][td bgcolor=#ffffff colspan=1 width=100 height=50 align=center valign=middle][size=150][color=#000000]4 or 10[/color][/size][/td] [td bgcolor=#ffffff colspan=1 width=100 height=50 align=center valign=middle][size=150][color=#000000]2 to 1[/color][/size][/td][td bgcolor=#ffffff colspan=1 width=100 height=50 align=center valign=middle][size=150][color=#000000]a $10 wager is paid $20[/color][/size][/td][/tr][tr][td bgcolor=#ffffff colspan=1 width=100 height=50 align=center valign=middle][size=150][color=#000000]5 or 9[/color][/size][/td][td bgcolor=#ffffff colspan=1 width=100 height=50 align=center valign=middle][size=150][color=#000000]3 to 2[/color][/size][/td][td bgcolor=#ffffff colspan=2 width=100 height=50 align=center valign=middle][size=150][color=#000000]a $10 wager is paid $15[/color][/size][/td][/tr][tr][td bgcolor=#ffffff colspan=1 width=100 height=50 align=center valign=middle][size=150][color=#000000]6 or 8[/color][/size][/td][td bgcolor=#ffffff colspan=1 width=100 height=50 align=center valign=middle][size=150][color=#000000]6 to 5[/color][/size][/td][td bgcolor=#ffffff colspan=2 width=100 height=50 align=center valign=middle][size=150][color=#000000]a $10 wager is paid $12[/color][/size][/td][/tr] Free Odds aren't Free.

• You must have a Line Bet or a Come Bet to make the bet.
• There is no advantage unless you have an advantage.
• If you do not have an advantage, you are now matching coin flips with a millionaire.

[acpa]

Consulant, I don't see A come bet as being the same as a "put" bet. of the possible 36 rolls, you will win your bet the first roll after you make the bet on 8 of the possible rolls and lose the bet on 4 of the possible rolls.. on 24 of the possible rolls, the come bet becomes a contract bet that mist wait for the seven to be rolled and you lose the contract bet. You will win the contract bet, on 3, 4,or 5 rolls depending on which number your contract bet went to.

For a put bet, which becomes a contract bet as soon as you make it, you are never in a suit action where you will win the bet more than you lose.
A come bet is a too part bet and it is only after it becomes a contract bet, that it is like a "put" bet.

Why do you ignor the first part?

Noah

[Consultant]

Noah said: I don't see A come bet as being the same as a "put" bet.

That's understandable, Noah. Few people do. What I am saying is that a Come Bet that is taken by a DI with a Sevens Avoidance dice set is less likely to become a natural(7 or 11) and more likely to become a Point Number(4, 5, 6, 8. 9. 10). If you don't believe in DI, then it is perfectly understandable that you would equate the toss with a random set of numbers.

Why do you ignor the first part?

Because I believe in Dice Influencing!

[acpa]

A put bet where you can take enough odds, I think it is more than 5 times, can be a good bet for someone who can control the dice. I didn't read your comment as only apply to DI. But it is not the put ber per say that makes it a good bet. even for a DI,you need to make the extra bet of the odds. So I still contend the put bet and a comebet are not similar.

I think two many people try to split the come bet into two separate bets, which it really isn't.

Noah

[acpa]

A put bet where you can take enough odds, I think it is more than 5 times, can be a good bet for someone who can control the dice. I didn't read your comment as only apply to DI. But it is not the put ber per say that makes it a good bet. even for a DI,you need to make the extra bet of the odds. So I still contend the put bet and a comebet are not similar.

I think two many people try to split the come bet into two separate bets, which it really isn't.

Noah

[Consultant]

Noah,
Do you believe in DI?
When you make a Come Bet, do you try to toss a seven?
When you make a Come Bet, do you try to avoid a seven?
When you make a Come Bet, do you try to toss a Box Number?

Whenever I watch DI's, I note that they tend to set against the seven so that they will not wipe out their current Point Numbers.
If they are successful in not tossing a Seven, then they are accepting the Point Number set by the toss. How is this different from accepting an arbitrary Put Number?
I realize that some of this is semantics, but think about the results.
I would suggest that such a toss was less than optimal for tossing sevens, and less than optimal for choosing a point number.