Heavy's Axis Power Craps Forum

There are some bets that are popular for their use as "tools" but not so popular as long run bets. Take, for example, the infamous $41 no four or no ten. This Lay bet is frequently used by Don't players as a hedge when playing the Don't Pass or Don't Come. They're trying to hedge against a seven. Once the Don't bet is established they bring the Lay bet down.

Can you think of other bets that are used as "tools" or leverage/hedges? What are they and what situations would you use them in? Looking to educate some of our newer players who haven't been deeply exposed to the concept.

Thoughts?

Three way craps, Horn or World bet and pass line. Some use it as a true AP play, but can also be used as a hedge on the CO. The coverage on the Yo if you elect to go with a Horn or World bet is not really a hedge though and just exposes an extra buck for an additional high house advantage wager.

What about that Any Seven bet we NEVER bet - except in a Crapless Craps game in Mississippi where we get the Extreme Outside for $40 working on the Come Out - combined with a $10 PL bet and a $10 Any Seven. Perfectly hedged. Big money payoffs on the XO.

22 pointed out that bet to me at Harrah's as I put $40 XO. Normally I hate hedges, but you get a lot for -$10 on CO inside numbers.

I used to hedge the hardways when I had an even numbers as my Don't. I stop doing that though.

The only hedge I use is an Any Craps bet to hedge my pass line bet. It is not the best bet, but I like winning money on all rolls that are not point numbers.

$10 PL bet I will throw $2 on the Any Craps, which pays 7 to 1. If a 2 3 or 12 are rolled, I collect $14 and lose $10. I will then press the Any Craps up a buck. While the rest of the table is moaning, I at least make a few bucks.

The first craps book I ever read was by R.D.Ellison. He basically said that the center bets were horrible, but explained them anyways. He then goes on to say that actually each of those bets are like a surgeon's tool, each has a specific use during specific times. I just took his word on that first sentence and never really took the time to understand those bets. Just a few months ago I wonder how another player could make a $5 C&E bet because I thought it had to be an even amount.

I am against "hedging bets" especially for new players. The more moving parts a "machine" has the more likely it will fall apart. For new players (who are taking up DI) should be more concerned about their toss, complicated betting systems might make them ignore flaws in their throw.

From a math point of view, it just increases the house edge over the player. Doing say a $10 DC bet with a $3 Big Red on the CO may seem sensible, but say when the puck travels your two outcomes are now $7 profit or $13 loss.

In my first post ever, I did state that there is a mathematical correct amount to hedge on a fire bet, but that should only be used on a random roller.

Speaking of hardways...

On the comeout, leave the hardways not working and hop the hardway(s) that are parlayed up.

Yeah, that's my move. LOL.

Hit a hard 10 like that this past weekend. Hard 10 hop - paid $62 and down for a $2 bet. My parlayed up $10 hard 10 would have paid $70. I like the $62 better.

Yep. I work my $1 hardways on the comeout, but once I've parlayed them I call them off during the comeout cycle and hop them in pairs. If I have $10+ on say the hard eight, I hop both it and its sister. So I hop the six and eight hardway. I can't believe how many times the sister comes out as the point during the comeout cycle. Anectdotal, yes and my confirmation bias at work. I'm still gonna play it that way. If the hop wins, I'll move $25 of the payout to the hardway that hit as an all day bet.

How much do you hop the numbers for BD? Do you size of the hop bets independent of one another and make them related to how large the all day HW is for each number?

Probably a 2 buck bet as hitting hop hdways is 30 to one, right? Wouldn't you want to keep the bet as small as possible next to yr. PL bet? I'm thinking it would unrelated to what you have parlayed, but more related to the PL. But then again this is a new one to me.

I'm thinking it's more in relation to the size of the all day HW bet and its expected payout. The goal would be to cover close to what the ADHW payout would be, or at least a good portion of it. Yes the payout of a HW hop is 30-1 so for a $10 ADHW bet you're looking at $2-3 hop depending how much of a hedge you want to toss out there. Those hop hedges could add up over the course of a session, especially if the shooter starts tossing come out naturals before setting a point.

Heavy, what do you think about the following bet?

Come out 75 dollars on dont pass...15 dollars on any 7... 5 dollars on YO.

After the comeout PLACE 150 dollars across, after [ three ] winning numbers TAKE your place bets down AND play 75 dollars on the come out number.

Jaime from puerto rico U.S.A.

My two cents on this play. I don't mind the hedge on the Yo, but hedging the 7 every time is going to cost you.

Personally, I only hedge when I play the don't in two ways. If I am playing the patrick system, I lay enough against the point to cover my first DC bet. Then I take the lay down and make a second DC bet for an amount less than the first DC. So for two rolls I am hedging against the 7.

The second hedge is a bad bet, but I do it anyways. If I place a DC bet and I get paid on a 2 or 3, I will then throw a hedge on the Yo.

r_ventura_23 wrote: ↑Tue Jan 29, 2019 2:17 pm Personally, I only hedge when I play the don't in two ways. If I am playing the patrick system, I lay enough against the point to cover my first DC bet. Then I take the lay down and make a second DC bet for an amount less than the first DC. So for two rolls I am hedging against the 7.

This is one of my staple dark side plays, although I don't make the second DC lower than the first DP/DC bets. Even if the 7 knocks you off the second DC bet, the DP and DC cover it x 2 and you come out ahead one full unit.

This play is a winning play if you have a SRR of 4 or 5 or like heavy has 6.

If you have an SRR of 2 or less this play is not for you.

Jaime from puerto rico U.S.A

I use the Field bet as a tool to populate other numbers when using the Iron Cross strategy. But only bet it when the 5, 6 and 8 are at least three units each on a $10 table. $15, $18, 1$8 . The Field bet would be $10, $11 or $12 depending on what the point is. On a hit on the Field, I will ramp up the 5,6, or 8 one unit more before starting to populate the 4, 9 and 10. Then just go from there.

The Field doesn't really have very good odds but it can help. I remember one time when Karpatylvov had 13 Field numbers in a row with a couple of Aces and Midnights. That quickly pressed up all the other numbers. So nice when that happens.

I use the Field bet as a tool to populate other numbers when using the Iron Cross strategy.

Good point. I'll do this OCCASIONALLY on a known shooter, but ONLY when the point is the 5, 6, or 8 so I don't have to cover an additional number in the IC to make it work. Once I have bets across, though, I'm through with it.

22Inside wrote: ↑Tue Jan 29, 2019 3:36 pm

r_ventura_23 wrote: ↑Tue Jan 29, 2019 2:17 pm Personally, I only hedge when I play the don't in two ways. If I am playing the patrick system, I lay enough against the point to cover my first DC bet. Then I take the lay down and make a second DC bet for an amount less than the first DC. So for two rolls I am hedging against the 7.

This is one of my staple dark side plays, although I don't make the second DC lower than the first DP/DC bets. Even if the 7 knocks you off the second DC bet, the DP and DC cover it x 2 and you come out ahead one full unit.

With the Patrick system I dont have a DP(well I do put it is a wash with the PL bet). But you are right. When I make my third DC it is equal to the first. Example $10 on the Pass $10 on DP. Point is a 5. Lay $30 on the 5 and put $15 on DC. 4 is rolled. Take the $30 lay off the 5 and put 10 on the DC. 6 is rolled. Put $15 on the DC. I am always protected from the 7.

I always wonder why I stopped playing this way. I used to grind out nice wins.

heavy wrote: ↑Tue Jan 29, 2019 5:30 pm

I use the Field bet as a tool to populate other numbers when using the Iron Cross strategy.

Good point. I'll do this OCCASIONALLY on a known shooter, but ONLY when the point is the 5, 6, or 8 so I don't have to cover an additional number in the IC to make it work. Once I have bets across, though, I'm through with it.

I tried this for a little while too but found it to be too hit or miss to make it worthwhile. I might try to revisit this though in future evolutions of my betting strategies. I even briefly tried using it as a way to funnel money into hardway bets in addition to place bets.