Heavy's Axis Power Craps Forum

i have been confused lately on which way to bet. i use to play the donts most of the time and now that i have been reading watching videos on proper way to toss dice i want to play more with the dice. i was wandering if some of the experienced players on this forum always bet with the dice and if things go bad switch to the donts. i know from reading post Heavy plays the donts sometimes. how about Howard, Six Shooter, Bankerdude, Irish, Maddog etc. Just curious if you go to table playing a certain way and change or just walk away when table is cold. I have had more wins playing the donts for small profits $50 to $250 with a $500 buy in. my losses are generally low $50 to $200 playing the donts. i seem to be able to play longer and withstand hot rolls better than playing with the dice and withstanding a cold table. just curious on how experienced or good shooters mind set is going to the table.advdel77

I suspect the most die-hard Don't players on the forum are Dylanfreake, Golfer, and Shootitall - all of whom, like most Don't players, have a tendency to stand down there at the other end of the table and keep a low profile - which means we don't see as many posts from them as we once did.

I will often to go the table with the specific intent of playing the Don'ts on every one except myself until the shooter proves me wrong. Sometimes they do so quite handily. On other occasions I can hit my win goal in a matter of minutes and get gone without ever touching the dice.

It sounds like you have a good handle on the dark side elements so I wouldn't screw with that overly much. Just try adding the shooting element when you get the dice and stay attuned to what's happening at the table so you can transition to the right side and back to the don'ts again if you need to.

If you haven't done so, check my "Heavy Speaks - The Dice Listen" thread in the Experts Speak section and look for the Transition Moves article. It'll give you an idea of how I approach the game when moving from one side to the other.

When I don't have the dice I play SIA One Hit Cant loose. The place bets are on a 2 shot leash. I take them down prior to the 3rd shot. At that point I let the DP and a DC/w odds play out. DC/DP bets at $25 and up are hedged (Patrick) u ntill travel. If Im in sync Ill get 1- 2 hits on place bets come down and collect on 2 donts.

If I cant sync up and I get cut to pieces Ill "no bet" till I get the dice. Sometimes the best bet is No Bet.

bryfromtheharbor wrote:When I don't have the dice I play SIA One Hit Cant loose. The place bets are on a 2 shot leash. I take them down prior to the 3rd shot. At that point I let the DP and a DC/w odds play out. DC/DP bets at $25 and up are hedged (Patrick) u ntill travel. If Im in sync Ill get 1- 2 hits on place bets come down and collect on 2 donts.

If I cant sync up and I get cut to pieces Ill "no bet" till I get the dice.

Sometimes the best bet is No Bet.

I think i am interpreting this right...Im assuming you tell the dealer no bet if your DC travels to a # where you do not want it to travel> say the 6 and 8?

If your answer is NO, then disregard comments... but, If your answer is Yes, than I have a question for why you would give up $100 for every 100 wagers on 6 & 8.? by this i mean, if you have a DC or DP and point is a 6 or an 8 i hear a lot of folks tell dealers No bet or no action.... I look at them and say 99 more and thats 100$ you just gave the house. 2 minutes later No Bet, '98 more... i was down to around 85 in an hr session where a don't player would NOT take action on a DP/DC.....

So you say you Play a $25 unit... so if you DC or DP is $26 and the # appears where you say No Bet/no action, just let it travel and then place the 6/8 for $24. If 6/8 come, you win 28 and Lose 25 for a $3 profit... if 7 comes, you win $1. So you will either win $1 or Win $3. Basically average $2 a win.... So every 50 NO bets nets you $100.

No more NO BETS for You.

BTW, really pays on 5-9 or 4-10 combo.... but I'm assuming you are referring to 6/8....

GL,
VDC

Adv,
For some sessions, I start with the Dont's, win a goal amount, then use the profits to switch to Do.
I don't Lay a 6 nor 8, instead DC if needed, until getting an Outside number.
The Don'ts most of the time are winners because the 7 is the easier number to get.
Starting with the Don'ts affords less risky warmup for later Do hands and multiple box hits.

"I will often to go the table with the specific intent of playing the Don'ts on every one except myself until the shooter proves me wrong."

Heavy's play is pretty much how I approach the game these days. If the table is less crowded I will shoot from the don't at times. Alone I will shoot from the don't and if I like the way the dice are reacting at that table will try switching to the rightside. It is true you can win more faster with less bankroll exposure on the rightside, yet unless a table is in "dump" mode, or warm to hot, darkside play for me seems more profitable.

Good Luck

Golfer

Golfer: I have been doing that for years, even when I was helping Heavy with the seminars. With a clear conscious I can say, "prove me wrong". Once, Coach was the shooter and he cleaned my clock.
Out of position, more libations than was good for him and just shot lights out. Luckily, I transitioned and recovered most. That is what I like most about the "one hit - can't miss" strategy, you are always one bet away from a transition.

whats your opinion on playing dp and dc wait to you get three numbers and then lay odds?advdel77

advdel77 wrote:whats your opinion on playing dp and dc wait to you get three numbers and then lay odds?advdel77

Advel77, With this example say Don't point is a 4 and DC a 10, now what?, Lay 2 to 1 and hope for a 7? if shooter picks of DC than makes point your down 6u. Not saying you can't recover here, it will be a Grind and take strict discipline to stick to plan. This was the Problem with Dave Lessnau's GREEN DP method. 4 and 10's made, killed your buy in and profits to that point if WIN goal not reached and EXIT table in time...Long recovery, leads to undisciplined play.

My suggestion if you are gonna lay odds, is to ABORT that play and place 2u on DP and 2 on DC instead of 1u than Lay after 3 rolls. Lay the Point only until DC gets to a number, if you want 2 wins per shooter win goal... or not...up to you Advel77. Unless you have table knowledge that 7 is gonna show, your only guessing. IMO if you wait 3 rolls than Lay odds, you into hand 5 rolls now. thats a slight sign that numbers will roll positive. so % of chance your DP and DC will get picked.

The Good thing is most sessions DP will rule the Pass line... Im showing these P vs DP over on Twitter, Click below on Sig bar.. Only 6 sessions so far in for 2015 bc of Flu bug and back issues, but +$1650/$135 hr, and ONLY 35u from first double, advancing to next level of unit. I show all P/Dp decisions, all roll data, One can follow this as I show it can be done Unlike One claim here that it can't.

For me, I admit I am a Dark side novice. But hey, I am always willing to learn new betting strategies. I've recently ventured playing the Don'ts on others except me. As Heavy says, they must prove themselves. If I spot a trend to a cold table, I will play the DC for two or three bets and wait for the seven. If I lose, I don't replace the bet until the next shooter. I don't bet much, just $15 per bet and no odds. It's my way of having some action while I wait for the table to turn to the right side. I need to get a better understanding of Dark side play and would maybe like to see an Advanced seminar class that goes into detail on it.

I've done dark-side specific sessions at seminars in the past and they are usually under-attended. I understand. Most of us came into the game because of the pulse-pounding excitement of a monster roll way back when. Those kinds of wins are great, but they're rare. I've said on many occasions that if you play the right side exclusively you are bound to lose at least 50% of the time. Of course, the same goes for dark siders. Bottom line - it's not how you play, but what happens at the table when you play. The reason DI is so attractive to many of us is the simple fact that it expands the amount of time we spend winning more than 50% while playing the right side. Even so, a small win on the right side is easily consumed by a larger loss on the Don'ts.

Some perspective on one way to play, prompted by Heavy's above post, and from my casino play.

When I'm shooting,
I play more donts than dos.
As much a reason for that is more fun hands playing donts.
What's a fun hand with the dos is long hands and more specifically more consistent long hands enough for a profit at days end.
Do you measure fun as having more winning hands or more money at the end of the day - either measure/answer is good , but doing both and with less volatility is better.

The starting premise is the number 7 being easiest to make

Do's: might be a bad $ example, but to illustrate the concept.
If you regress after say two hits with more than enough to cover the regressed at-risk bets, consider:
You bet $204 for two hits, 7out on the 3,4,5th toss and you make maybe $100, maybe more, or maybe less.
The next hand you lose $204 - like Losing a dont bet with Lay odds. In that respect, if you don't have some consistency, it's a grind if not a loss at days end. Any grind from behind and in the hole is not fun.
(The math and SRR says you will be a winner, but in the mean time at too many tables...)
A do hand that's fun is a long one. How many long hands do you get - how many fun hands? Great shooters get more. How about the average shooter - average DI shooter.
As Heavy refers above "...pulse-pounding...but rare."

Donts:
You Will win more hands than playing Do; a DI shooter is manipulating the dice for the easiest number.
That adds up to more fun hands than going the longer and rarer Do hands. How much is won, depends on how much is wagered and how it is wagered.
With flat dont bets, you win more hands (with more profit).
(the DI shooter is manipulating the dice to get the easiest number)
With Odds, you win the needed 2+ times to each loss and more profit - outside numbers.

At day;'s end, with good shooting results, "more profit" possibly would have happened shooting the other side? Maybe, maybe not.

Try the Don't side, develop a strategy and see what side is preferable.
How many hands are won DP vs PL ?
Which side is more fun?
Laying Odds is not always necessary(?)
It's been said before on this board, that a shooter should be comfortable and aware of the advantages of both sides.
And it's also fun switching sides sometimes during a session to see what the flip side has to offer.


Also, part of my overall like for DP play are the disadvantages to PL play, such as:
-pressing up from a small PL start, and
-with a large PL(eg Inside or Across) start to use ISR, going PSO or PPSO, etc

My play includes Not laying the 6/8 numbers. Recall that should a number repeat, DP shooter retains the dice for a more warmed-up redemptive effort - which addresses "digging out" -, whereas the PL shooter loses them.

bobbylee

Bobbylee, laying the 6 or 8 can work. Don't let that ship sail away. It can work well.

Have you ever thought about hoping the red?

Golfer

Golfer,
You're absolutely right in that the 6/8 donts with or without Odds, can and will work.

In favor of not Laying a 6/8:
The disadvantage is that doing so increases volatility and Slows Down profit growth especially with losing Odds, (regardless of Set selection and DI efforts, etc,) then requiring two wins to dig out for every loss; a shooter will win fewer times than with an Outside. At an uncrowded table, it's less of a problem, but one my choice would be to avoid by Laying only Outsides.


Six ways to win with five ways to lose is not as decisive as say six ways to win, with three (or two with Hardways) ways to lose.
And DI influence makes that 6:3 ratio more around 2+:1.

If the DP-CO is a 6/8, one or two DC bets - usually only one, will give a preferred Outside.to Lay - any DC with a DP, is a protected shot. 6/8 repeats are not that often to really matter.
The dont player need not be stuck with a 6/8 - which mirrors all hands I play. It's Not a matter of "having to play the hand you're dealt." Options are available for optimized bets for the DP player, at the beginning and as the hand develops.
Making lemonade out of lemons can also be Placing any dont 6/8 before or after the desired Outside.

No, I really haven't given any thought to hopping Red.
What and how is your play on that?

bobbylee

Bobbylee,
I will share the strategy of a very successful DI that plays the don't side only. His comment to me was"why not shoot for the easiest number (7) to make and not fight it. This player is a black chip player with the following strategy: He would bet five hundred on the don't pass line (and never take odds) and with one hundred dollars on the 11. His dice set on the come out roll was 5/6 on top with 6/5 facing you. He would generally either roll an 11, 3, or an outside number. With the 11 he wins $1,500 and loses the $500 don't bet, with the 3 he wins $500 loses the $100 on the 11, with an outside number, he changes dice set to an all 7's and more than half the time wins the don't pass bet. I played with him at the Gold Strike in Tunica on a $100 minimum table. He won $16,000 for that session I played with him, and I won several $1,000's with very manageable volatility. He had has own table and practices the two dice sets that I mentioned above exclusively. Also, he would place a $25 bet for the dealers on the don't pass. He had the dealers chanting for the 7.

i played with a guy on a cruise ship out of charleston, sc who played exactly that way. he was from north carolina and had a table at home. one of the nights on the cruise he bought in for $2000 and cashed out approx. 15,000. he set the dice 1-6. he was good at rolling 2 and 3. he actually quit playing the 11 and put $500dp and $100 field. advdel77

Advdel77,
I think this has got to be the same person. He was from Charlotte, NC. I did not get his name. When I played with him in Tunica, he had been playing in Las Vegas for two weeks earlier. He told me that he won $100,000 there and was told that they did not want his action any more. He indicate that he had the big win not on his rolls exclusively, but caught a cold table and was betting $5,000 on the don't pass line. I was suspect of his story until I played with him. He played with total confidence that his skills and strategy would prevail. He made me a believer of his story. He was exciting to be at the table with.

got to be same person, because thats how we started talking i am from charlotte, nc. and normally do not see a dont player shooting while betting that big.advdel77

Advdvel77
Do your ember which position he shot from and his dice grip?

SL1 he used a 2 finger o-ring grip and a three finger front grip. in THE MAD PROFFESSOR'S CRAPSHOOTING BIBLE it is on page 44 and page 47.advdel77