Heavy's Axis Power Craps Forum

I like betting the don't side even as the shooter, and placing the 6&8. The questions I have are for the optimal come out strategy (I've been playing the don't pass $10min, with a $5 world) and my options for if I roll a 6 or 8 on the come out... Place them anyways hoping to hit, or maybe lay the sister and shoot the all 7 set? I believe you guys know a hell of a lot more than me with the experience you've had, so I'm always listening and willing to learn.

Thanks, those tips help a lot... I think I might hop the sevens on the comeout and lay odds on my point when established until the 6 or 8 hit once then take the odds off. If the 6 or 8 is my point number, ill lay odds and shoot for the 7

I'd suggest you forget about the hop bets and world bets if you're playing the Don'ts. They'll cost you more than the occasional seven or eleven.

On a $10 game try betting a $12 Don't Pass bet. Regardless of what point is established - once the point is established place bet the six and eight for $12 each. One hit on either the six or eight and you cannot lose. If you seven out without scoring a hit on the six or eight you'll lose $12. If you toss an hour and a half hand before sevening out you might get paid twenty times on the six and eight. If the six or eight is the point and you place it for $12 you'll win $2 net if you make the point - or break even on the seven excluding any other action.

What I've just described is Shootitall's "one hit - can't miss" play - which perhaps he will chime in on shortly.

Heavy, you put that strategy in words very elequoently. I have nothing to add except it works the same at any level, $6, $12, $18, etc. I believe MP figured the vig at less than 5%, but I simply do not remember.

1.4% on the DP bets. 1.51% on the Place 6 and 8 bets. Let's not get into any sort of house percentage voodoo where the edge on the Don't side offsets the edge on the Right side. What's the old line? It just frustrates the pig?

Heavy you really did answer my questions to a T, but thsts why I asked you folks. I noticed you try and answer everybody's questions honestly and with expertise. That's commendable, thanks for taking the time, especially with some of us newer players

Heavy/SIA - if you do intend to play this DP/6&8 place combo on a shooter and get knocked off on the come-out roll do you reload at all or do you have rule to just leave it until the next shooter?

LS: To me it makes no difference, you are just trying to dodge the 8/3 CO roll. Grafstein says to not let the same shooter beat you twice. So here is the deal: If you do not rebet the CO and the shooter establishes a point, you kick yourself. If he throws a craps, you kick yourself harder. If he throws another CO winner, you say "Whoo Hoo!!! dodged a bullet". So, pays you money, take you chances with whatever makes you comfortable. Personally, losing to the CO is just part of the game and losing $6 or $12 is not that big of a deal if you have sufficient BR. First hit you recover your loss. Two hits, you be in the money. PSO, rats, lost one of the place numbers.
Let me add here that this is not a strategy to make a killing. It is a cheap way for the dice to travel the loop while you are waiting for the dice so you can clean the casino's clock. As Heavy mentioned, if you are playing this and a hot hand develops, you be doing good and can spread out or press. Personally, I sort of like Feinstein on the pressing part. Be sure you have read about Heavy's Transition moves so you will have something else to think about. sia

at one point i did something of the opposite where i had my don't pass and a same bet up or up to triple the don't pass (depending on how I feel) on the field using the cross 6 set. Yes only the 7 will screw me over or maybe the 6 or 8. but it pays ok on the 11 and good with a 3 but the 2 or 12 is a joy. My logic is try to hit the big hit in the beginning and seven myself out.

now with random rollers may be a different thing.

but I do like the $3 come bet being a better bet than to place the 6&8. so what about hopping the 6 and 8's on the come out? then again a bad bet. if anything... perhaps working either the 6 or 8 or both on the come out knowing that 7 won't come out. this actually leads me to another thinking of how the 11 and 3, if one die double pitches it makes a 6 or 8.

Thanks for the update SIA. I will indeed read up on Heavy's transition moves.

. . . if you do intend to play this DP/6&8 place combo on a shooter and get knocked off on the come-out roll do you reload at all or do you have rule to just leave it until the next shooter?

That's one of Sam Grafstein's rules for playing the Don'ts - if a shooter knocks you off on the Come Out just sit out his hand and wait for the next shooter. It's a good rule in that it keeps you from chasing a loss - especially if the shooter is going to toss three or four naturals on the come out before establishing a point. You can avoid the Come Out issue by bypassing the Come Out entirely then playing a Don't Come Bet, which then becomes your primary number - assuming the shooter doesn't seven out or toss a second roll Yo. One loss per shooter is a good rule, however you look at it. Personally, I rarely follow that rule but hey - that doesn't make it a bad rule.

I like the rule to an extent. I don't play the donts as yet, but on passline and come betting my rule now (which I am getting very strict about) is to only reload once if a shooter knocks me off.....unless of course I am the one shooting and have to have a passline bet....though I guess I could consider a doey/dont if I kept crapping out. I take it that is OK if you are shooting in that you have placed the required bet in order to shoot?

Thoughts on using a Richochet Play to establish to establish the DC or a Lay to establish the DP?

The Ric is a good play. So is $31 no five. So is $31 no nine. So is $25 no six. So is $25 no eight. So is $41 no four. So it $41 no ten. Hey, they're all good - as long as the number you're laying against doesn't roll.

Your best way to get a Don't Pass bet established is to simply play one that is within your bankroll and forget all of the hedges.

"It just frustrates the pig?"

Been around here a long time and everytime you think you've seen it all you see or hear something new. Frustranting the pig. Does DF know this one?

If playing the DP for less than $15 don't worry about hedges and stop after 2 comeout winners against you. At $15 or more, hedge if the 7 or 11 are showing. A lay bet on the inside is cheaper than hopping the red in most cases. However, plan on getting smacked once in awhile.

Rare weekday off will send me on a coupon run today. Yawhoooo!

Later

The way I always heard it was:

"Don't try to teach a pig to sing. It wastes your time and annoys the pig."

"When my hogs don`t feel good, I don`t feel good"

Regarding the "one hit can't miss" there is something I am missing and need a bit more explanation please.

So I bet $12 DP and a place a $12 6 & 8 regardless of the point established. If the 7 comes I lose $12 net, I get that bit. The bit I can't work out though is one hit on the 6 or 8 and I put $14 in my rack - but I still have $36 on the table. So how can I not lose from this position? I can see if the point is a 6 or 8 then I cannot lose, but if it is an outside number than then hits I lose my DP and I still have my 6&8 up exposed to the next set of rolls. Do I just take the 6&8 down if the first point hits?

From my experience if your DP is on 4 and the 4 hits the next roll will be a 7out and take the rest if left out.

"Your best way to get a Don't Pass bet established is to simply play one that is within your bankroll and forget all of the hedges."

Heavy: Often times when you are playing you will see a DP player wave off the 6 and 8 rolls. My question is have you ever seen a casino that will let another player buy that players wave off? You would have an edge since that money has already survived the 7/11.