Is it better to play the field, the 2, 3, 11, & 12, or what

[mycoalsmith]

I'm a conservative better.

With a Craps table with no Firebet, I usually do the 5 count and after the 5 count, I'll place the 6 & 8. After a couple wins there, I'll usually add place the 5 and then the field. As I win, I start placing the 4, 9, & 10 and continue to play the field - this doubles my wins on the 4, 9, & 10, plus if a 2, 3, 11, or 12 come up I get paid as well. (2 & 12 double my field bet.)

But I'm now wondering (once I get the 4, 9, & 10 placed) if I would be better off forgetting the field bet and putting $1.00 on the 2, 12, 3, & 11. 2 & 12 pays 30 to $1.00, 3 & 11 pays 15 to $1.00.

So, I guess a 2 part question. Am I foolish for even playing the field? and Is it foolish to play the 2, 3, 11, & 12 once all the numbers are covered. Usually the 2, 3, 11, & 12 don't come up too often. Each roll of the dice risks a $4.00 bet. (Of course, if those numbers happen to come up often, I'll make out like a bandit.)

What do you guys say?

[bobthetree]

It all depends on what bone tracker says for what you throw. I would get in some books of rolls and look at the expected ev of each bet you want to make. Should shed some light on the issue for you. My intuition says you would need a pretty high SSR and hit quite a bit above average on the 2,3,11&12 for each of the bets you talked about to all be profitable.

Even if that is the case, conventional wisdom points towards putting more of your money on fewer bets. Probably your top 2 - 4 expected EV bets. It is exciting to get paid every throw without 'ol red showing up though...

[House of Orange]

If you are a conservative better, then horn bets and field bets have way too high a house edge.

[mycoalsmith]

Irish, the 5 count is what I do for everyone else shooting at the table. This tends to weed out the majority that are quick 7 outs. (Although every once in a while the 6th roll happens to be a 7 and wipes out my bets that I just placed.)

Usually when I am the shooter, I bet the Passline and once the number has comeout, I place the 5, 6, & 8. I usually play the $5.00 table, so $5.00 on the 5 and $6.00 on the 6 & 8, and then a $5.00 field bet. The first wins on the 5, 6, or 8 are presses since I don't make much with the losing field bet.

I've been considering when I shoot to put $10.00 on the 5, and $12.00 on the 6 & 8, so the first hits I'm making a profit, but that's $34.00 of my money out there at risk if I happen to 7 out quick.

Seems some tables I have good runs at, while others I 7 out quick. I do try to influence the dice, 7 set for the comeout roll, and then the hardways once the point is established.

I did play free Craps online yesterday that once all numbers were placed, I bet $1.00 on the 2, 3, 11, & 12 and quit the field. (I know that online Craps isn't the same as in the casino) but I ended up on the losing side with $4.00 each roll of the dice on the 2, 3, 11, & 12. Even though the payouts are bigger, I think I'll stick with the field bets where all numbers are covered except 5, 6, 7, & 8.

So, I guess I answered my own question. I do keep track of what all shooters do roll at the table, so if I see someone that rolls an awful lot of 2's, 3's, 11's, or 12's, then I'll perhaps try my luck at the higher payouts.

[rhythm roller]

Seems some tables I have good runs at, while others I 7 out quick.

I'm not sure from the above if you are talking about specific tables in specific casinos where you tend to have better hands or if you are just talking about variance in general and not specific tables.

If you do have tables where you seem to do better more often it may be becasue their characteristics suit your throw better. If that is the case then why play at any other tables? Play where you feel you can win and have the confidence to do it!

Just my thoughts.

[mycoalsmith]

rhythm roller,

I seem to have trouble playing at The Rivers in Pittsburgh. Once, I got on a hot streak, but most times I shoot there, I 7 out rather quickly. I think the last time I was there, I did make 3 Comeout numbers before 7'ing out.

I seem to do good at The Meadows in Waynesburg, PA. The last time I was there, I had some long rolls.

Presque Isle in Erie seems mixed - sometimes I do well, other times not.

I haven't played in Salamanca, NY for a while, but that was another mixed bag. Salamanca was my favorite haunt, but when they changed the monthly comps from $15.00 / month to $5.00 / week - it doesn't justify the drive.

Erie usually gives me a $10.00 Match Play coupon and The Rivers gives me a $25.00 Match Play. Meadows usually gives me $10.00 - $15.00.

The closest casino to me is a 2 hour drive. Lately I've been heading to Erie once a month and Pittsburgh / Waynesburg once per month.

The last two months I've made profits. Maybe my controlled dice thows are getting better.

[Mad Professor]

Hi Mycoalsmith,

Your comment about Seneca Allegany in Salamanca, NY is interesting because it would appear that many other craps players feel the same way as you do about them shifting from monthly incentives to weekly ones; however, there is a not-so-obvious upside to all of that.

Their table-populations have dropped by a good -20% during prime-hours, to well over -40% in off-hours, and by what appears to be around -70% during off-off hours.


MP

[mycoalsmith]

Mad Professor - interesting.

The odd thing about Salamanca is that even though the last couple times I was there, I mostly played Craps, I was never mailed a Match Play coupon. I was always mailed that $10.00 or $15.00 was on my card for free slotplay.

Apparently now, Presque Isle in Erie has decided to do the same thing as Salamanca. At first I was getting $10.00 Match Play coupons. In March, I was given $10.00 in free slot play and no Match Play coupon. Now for the month of April, they have decided to give me $5.00 each week in free slot play. Perhaps they have changed it because I've been coming up every month and they figure I'm going to come regardless of what free play I'm given. With Erie being a 2 hours drive, that $10.00 in Match Play could help with gas. Now, even though they have "doubled" my free play, I have to go once a week to get that $5.00. Between working a 40 hour / week job, keeping the house up, and other things - that's just not going to happen.

The Rivers always gives me two $25.00 Match Play coupons - 1 to be used from the 1st of the month to the 14, and the other from the 15th to the end of the month. Again, I'm looking at a 2 hour drive. Going twice a month just isn't going to work. I can at least rationalize that the $25.00 in Match Play I'm getting at least pays for my gas to get there and back. (Well, if I win!)

When I'm at the Rivers, it's just a short drive to The Meadows - so I can hit 2 casinos in 1 day. For April, I've been given 2 $10.00 coupons for free slot play - 1 good from April 5th to the 18th, and the other good from April 19th - May 2.

So, with the combined coupons, I've been given $35.00 which certainly pays the gas for the day. (Well again, if I win.)

The past couple of trips to Erie and Pittsburgh have been profitable, so I guess I'll keep going.

[Mad Professor]

Hi Mycoalsmith,

Yes, many casinos have switched from giving table-game match-plays to now giving free slot-play instead...and there's a very good reason for that.

~A match-play coupon has around a +49% positive EV (expected-value) for the player; meaning that a $25 m-p is 'worth' about $12.42 to the player (based on how often they will win, versus how often they will lose when the match-play coupon is in action).

~On the other hand, free slot-play has been show to have a greater 'added-value' effect for the casino (and not so much for the player); because, once seated in front of a slot-machine, a player (even a self-identifying 'non-slots-player') will likely go into their pocket to prolong and extend the experience once that free-play is burned through.

That is, once that free-play patron has played through their freebie; there is a good chance that they will use some money out of their own kick to fund a bit more play at that same machine.

I know it sounds totally mercenary on their part; but it works like CRAZY, so you can expect to see more of those things...and less and less match-plays!

We've had an ongoing discussion about the best ways to profitably exploit free slot-play over on the Dice Institute message-board for the past couple of months. On one side you have the "Go with low-variance/high-payback full-pay Jacks-or-better Video Poker" school-of-thought, and on the other you have my current method of the last couple of years, which is to go with extreme-variance/extreme-payback higher-denomination/multi-line bonus-round slot-machines such as the $1/40-line Wolf Run or Coyote Moon machines.

Both approaches have merit. The video poker route is far more consistent in terms of generating a positive return off of free-play credit; however, the high-volatility of the bonus-round slot-machines (especially the $1 and $5 variety) offer a completely different gaming experience in terms of potentially converting a couple of hundred dollars in free slot-play into substantially more actual cash.



MP

[Occasional Shooter]

The Field and your Intuition seem to be important for me. Unfortunately I am the least experienced at the tables here, or so I believe. With that in mind take my comments with a grain of salt.
I only know how I toss on my rig and I'm not sure how that will equate to the casino tables yet. I have 2 strategies in mind and how I practice at home with my rig and a table layout.

Until I feel like I understand how my Dice are landing I will play the Don't with a $5 minimum, $1 on the C&E and $2 on the Any at 4 to 1 (seven). So I have $9 at risk, I'll pay for the come out roll with no more than $4. You can figure the outcome on the 7, 11, 2, 3, and 12. The 12 is my push on the Don't.
Lets say I make a point of 9 which is a high outcome according to BT for me. I then place the 9 and continue to roll. I read somewhere on one of the threads that we are observing all the time as we try to influence the dice. So I'll try to make out how I'm rolling.
After I feel pretty comfortable with how my set is working, a modification on the X sixes, I'll begin to play the Pass Line and cover with the Any Craps. Let's say my point is a 4 or 10, I'll place what has been coming up most on the inside. Maybe the 9. When it hits I'll same bet once, second time press to the 8 and put out $10 to place the 5 and 6. So now I'm risking $15 and I lost $1 on the Any Craps. Provided the nasty doesn't come up I'll same bet and then press 2 times on the inside numbers. Once I have pressed the 3rd time so that the 5, 6 & 8 have $10, $12 & $12 I'll bet the field. If my point was the 9, I'll bet on the inside number I've seen most other than the 9, maybe the 6. Everything else is basically the same. If by chance I touch the dice and feel the devil is near, I'll tell the dealer to take down my bets. That's not something I will feel comfortable doing, because it seems - like quitting I guess. But that is the plan.
The only thing I see in what you're doing betting the horn numbers is looking for a higher payout. The C&E will cost you $2 with a craps pay of $7 and a Yo at $15. So conservatively you can cover the same numbers with less for less.
With the Hardways set there are 4 theoretical 7s and no theoretical craps if you're on the 6/1 axis. With the X sixes I have 2 theoretical 7s and 3 theoretical craps. So when you decide on what you are going to bet you need to see how you are rolling and then bet your rolls. I like the idea of playing into your slice. If you know that you are landing on a certain number, then bet that number often.
If any of this makes sense, maybe I'm on the right track. I am looking to test my theories soon.

[bobthetree]

Don't forget how high the house edge is on C&E, Any 7, etc. You should make sure with your BT results that each bet is a good bet for you on its own. If you hedge too much on negative EV bets, you will have trouble getting anywhere. I would recommend posting your BT results to a thread and get some feedback here from some of the more experienced members. Just my $.02

[soxfan]

If I recall correctly, either the 2 or 12 is supposed to pop once within 18 rolls of the cubes. Perhaps, a shrewd cat could devise a style of play based on that, hey hey!

[acpa]

So soxfan you bet $72 dollars at $2 on 36 rolls. you collect $31 on the roll of the 2 and 12 and lose on all the other bets.

So you started with 72 and now have $62. Doesn't sound good to me.

Noah

[House of Orange]

SoxFan; It would be 1 out of 36. Payout should be 35-1. The generous casino pays 30-1 except for some thieves in Vegas that pay 29-1

[soxfan]

SoxFan; It would be 1 out of 36. Payout should be 35-1. The generous casino pays 30-1 except for some thieves in Vegas that pay 29-1

Either the 2 or 12 is expected to pop, once within 18 rolls of the cubes. So, I was thinking that we could take advantage of that by betting the field, rather than the 12/2 individual, like, hey hey.

[amish dude]

SoxFan; It would be 1 out of 36. Payout should be 35-1. The generous casino pays 30-1 except for some thieves in Vegas that pay 29-1

Either the 2 or 12 is expected to pop, once within 18 rolls of the cubes. So, I was thinking that we could take advantage of that by betting the field, rather than the 12/2 individual, like, hey hey.

You might also be a candidate forviewtopic.php?f=14&t=1561ORviewtopic.php?f=14&t=1573 Just a thought !