How do YOU play the hardways?

Setting and influencing the dice roll is just part of the picture. To beat the dice you have to know how to bet the dice. Whether you call it a "system," a "strategy," or just a way to play - this is the place to discuss it.

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mssthis1
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Re: How do YOU play the hardways?

Post by mssthis1 » Tue Jan 12, 2016 3:06 pm

I rarely play hardways with the exception of the Organic Craps machine. It has a counter that shows how long it's been since each hardway has hit. Once any particular hardway reaches 80 rolls without a hit, I'll bet $5.00 on that hardway, if it gets knocked off Increase $5.00 each time until it hits, then take it down. So far it has worked every time over 5 trips. $40.00 is the highest I've had to go so far.

Don't ask me how I came up with 80 rolls. It's just a number I plucked out of the air.

I have heard some people claim a $1.00 hard 6 or 8, parlayed 4 times, has a lower house edge than the fire bet. I have never tried to calculate or validate that claim as almost all the joints in my area have a $1500.00 max prop bet payout rule.

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heavy
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Re: How do YOU play the hardways?

Post by heavy » Tue Jan 12, 2016 4:53 pm

It's just a number I plucked out of the air.
There are certainly worse places to pull a number out of . . .
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Tgold
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Re: How do YOU play the hardways?

Post by Tgold » Wed Jan 13, 2016 9:50 pm

Good post/a wagering topic that I could certainly improve in /increase my knowledge base.

It would be good to see some veteran players chime in with their latest HW wagering strategies. Along with reasons and thoughts to support why/how they evolved to this strategy.

I'll be the first to admit that I'm not a big hardway fan (and seldom bet them), simply because IMO there are more efficient and less volatile methods to extract cash from the tables. However, I have seen huge sums accumulated in a matter of minutes from just three or four partial parlays.

My typical HW wagers are <=6units total so that any one HW hit pays for all HW wagers as I treat them separate from my primary wagers.
For Example: If Im using the HW set I may wager two units each on the 4/10 and one unit each on the 6/8 and never replace lost HW wagers with chips from the rack. Although in the above example if the HW6 gets knocked off I would take one unit from the two-unit 4 OR 10 and replace that lost HW6 with one unit.

After losing a HW wager I would prefer to have at least one HW unit on all four HWs vs two on some and none on others when using the HW set. Once the 2 units each on the 4/10 are lost or relocated I wouldn't replace any lost wagers so that no one hand can lose more than initial six HW units.

As my goal is to only lose <=6units of HW per hand and hopefully get at least >=1 hit on any HW which would obviously pay for all 6units of HW wagers.

Typically if using the 3V I sometimes may wager 2 units each on the 6/8 (none on 4/10) and regress the nonhit HW down to one unit on the first hit, instead of pressing the winner. Again, I never put a greater number of HW units out than what I started hand. Same scenario if Im using the 2v and wagering the 4/10 I may bet HWs on the 4/10 only (no 6/8 HWs), with same regression on nonhit hardway from two units down to one unit.

Thoughts? Recommendations? Criticism?



All the best,
Tgold

Bankerdude80
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Re: How do YOU play the hardways?

Post by Bankerdude80 » Wed Jan 13, 2016 10:17 pm

I think HW bets will drain your bankroll in the long run. That being said, I will sometimes play $1 or $2 HW and parlay once if it hits. I will press it with matching units after that. Anecdotally, I have rarely seen the third hit.
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dork
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Re: How do YOU play the hardways?

Post by dork » Wed Mar 02, 2016 11:07 am

London Shooter wrote:... Dork, if you are still around and reading this, are you still playing your hardways the same today as you were back in 2012?
Hi LS, It's good to see you're still "commuting" to our tables> :o :D I'm sorry I'm late on this answer (after your recent trip). I wanted to stay off the forum in order to avoid the temptation of joining the classes or freeloading at the table during the Biloxi meet.

I still practice at home now and then. I'm waiting for my retirement funds to kick in; right now, I'm living off my savings (Social Security won't kick in for another 18 mumpfs; then lookout--we'll have more money than we did during my 'playing years'.) Things aren't "meager" here, I'm still plagued with a 14-17% DP in practice, and that's kept me from regular trips.

To answer your question, my HW bets are a little different from 2012. During my last several outings I'd set the dice with a x3 and bet $5 each on the HW 6/8 and $52/54 Across (nothing on the HW 4/10). When a HW hit, I'd pay the dealers $5, go to $20 on both HW's, 'up one unit' on the corresponding place bet, and net $18 for the rack. If the soft number comes up, I'd replace it with a $5 bet until it loses twice more and quit the number (still, I'd 'up one unit' the place bet each time all the time.)

When the $20 HW hits, I full parlay the place bet, go to $50 on both HW's, and give the dealers $20 netting me $100 from the HW bet. If it wins again, $50 to the dealers, and go to $100 each on the HW 6/8. (At $36 Placed, I take the full $42 payoff on the soft 6/8 when they hit before I resume an 'up one unit' bet until the hand finishes. I don't know the mathematics, but this way, at least it feels like the Place 6/8 bets aren't just there to finance HW money; a minor consolation when the HW's don't pay off.) All the while, I'm still using my Parlay One Number betting system--parlaying either the Place 5 or 9 until at least the 3rd hit before reducing it to a $10 bet; everything else is 'up one unit'.

When the HW's lose, I usually start over with a $5 replacement bet and allow a total of 3 losses each on the 6/8 before I quit betting the HW's completely for that hand.

KenK2
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Re: How do YOU play the hardways?

Post by KenK2 » Wed Mar 02, 2016 3:21 pm

I love the HW's... The above is awesome! Makes my $1 HW bet look "limp".. :D

If you don't mind me asking, what the is x3 dice set?

SHOOTITALL
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Re: How do YOU play the hardways?

Post by SHOOTITALL » Wed Mar 02, 2016 6:43 pm

I, too have a weakness for the hardways. I was in SB and a guy, older fellow, was shooting. I believe he was using the V3 but anyway when his left die would roll over side ways, it came up 2-2, hard 4. After this happened a couple of time, I put the dealers and me on the H4 - and boy did that work out. I would press ~50% and press the dealers $-5-10-15 etc. We raked it in. My original $2 H4 got up to ~$60, the dealers to $20 before the hand ended.
The next time he got the dice I just started with a $5 H4 and the dealers $2. Again we raked it in. After that, he would not shoot any more. I think he was POed at me for not making a bet for him. Anyways, that was the best I eve did although I did collect over $60 once in LV when I was at the a table with Dice Coach starting with a $1 H4. Dumb ass me did not place the 4. Really stupid.
Your craps plan? The dice gods laughed.

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DarthNater
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Re: How do YOU play the hardways?

Post by DarthNater » Tue Jul 16, 2019 9:28 pm

I stumbled across this thread earlier today while I was working on the Craps Analytics - Hardways Strategies; and thought it could use a bump as some cool info here, D.N8r
Your lack of faith in The Force disturbs me, Commander.......

Billionaireben
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Re: How do YOU play the hardways?

Post by Billionaireben » Tue Jul 16, 2019 10:52 pm

I like to bet $6 on a hard 6, if it hits; I collect $50 and press the hard 6 to $10. I have played with the idea of $1 hard 6 and $6 place the 6, if it comes easy I spread to the 8 and put the $1 hardway back up; if it comes hard I spread to $22 inside. If I were on a hot streak, I might bet $25 inside; then press to $100 and collect $150. $100 is table limit where I play. The most I've hit was 3-4 in a row and I didn't go past $10 because I wasn't shooting that well before that. My biggest win was $25 and $10 for the dealers, which became $100; my mom thought I was crazy for tipping so well.

Jeff40
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Re: How do YOU play the hardways?

Post by Jeff40 » Wed Jul 17, 2019 2:04 am

I like to bet 4 &10 3 each. Sometimes 6 and 8. 2 each

thnick
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Re: How do YOU play the hardways?

Post by thnick » Wed Jul 17, 2019 8:01 am

I will play the hardways when I'm well ahead for the dealers. Sometimes only 4 and 10 for myself since there are fewer ways to make them. Used for a hedge against no 10 or 4.

22Inside
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Re: How do YOU play the hardways?

Post by 22Inside » Wed Jul 17, 2019 8:22 am

I've been trying to work in a HW strategy to my betting and what I've settled on lately is to bet the HW as the numbers are thrown, and upping the bet by $1 each time the number is tossed. So the first time an even box number is thrown, regardless of whether it came hard or not, I'll toss out a $1 HW bet on it. This includes numbers thrown to set a point. The next hit on that number, if it comes easy, I'll bump the HW bet to $2, Third hit, $3, etc.

When a HW that I'm on is thrown hard, I'm either parlaying the win or bumping up the HW bet with the winnings. If the HW is thrown when I have $1 on it, I parlay it. At a $2 bet or greater, press the HW to $15 and rack the rest.

If a $15 HW, I've been going to $50 and racking the rest ($100 for 6 or 8, $85 for 4 or 10).

If the pressed up HW bet is thrown easy on the next throw, I drop back to what the bet I would have made based on the number of hits for that number.

I like to think of this as a sort of heatseeker strategy for hardway bets, only betting the numbers that are being thrown and gradually increasing the bet for those numbers being thrown with the most frequency.

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DarthNater
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Re: How do YOU play the hardways?

Post by DarthNater » Thu Jul 18, 2019 7:39 am

22Inside wrote:
Wed Jul 17, 2019 8:22 am
I've been trying to work in a HW strategy to my betting and what I've settled on lately is to bet the HW as the numbers are thrown, and upping the bet by $1 each time the number is tossed. So the first time an even box number is thrown, regardless of whether it came hard or not, I'll toss out a $1 HW bet on it. This includes numbers thrown to set a point. The next hit on that number, if it comes easy, I'll bump the HW bet to $2, Third hit, $3, etc.
22I,
The Hardway Heatseeker, I see. So if I'm reading it right, when a number is thrown soft, you bump it up a buck - i.e. $1 hard 8, toss is a soft 8, the $1 goes down and is replaced by $2; then if again - it's replaced by $3 etc. I know you've already placed the 6 & 8 (and likely the 4 & 10) - so you use those hits to feed the replacement of that hardway bet. I'm presuming this is only on DIs ?

Have you thought of initially betting all 4 hardways? I've been wargaming more of a "see a hardway - bet all 4 hardways approach"; if only for the reason that when I'm tossing I'll get 3-4 hardways in like a small range. But, I always seem to come back to: if you're gonna bet them - get the money out there early; afterall, this ain't the five count

D.N8r
Your lack of faith in The Force disturbs me, Commander.......

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Re: How do YOU play the hardways?

Post by Big O » Thu Jul 18, 2019 8:39 am

DarthNater wrote,
"see a hardway - bet all 4 hardways approach";
This has been my approach. When i see or if i "feel" like Hardways are going to show I usually toss out a nickel, one dollar on each for me and piggy back the dealers on one. I usually make them earn their keep. Occasionally i replace them if i have a strong feeling. If one hits i usually press them all one the first hit. Occasionally i will parlay. I like 22s strategy though. I may try it. Sometimes when i turn my bets off i will toss out hardway bets so i have some action.
"if it was easy anyone could do it"

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Re: How do YOU play the hardways?

Post by 22Inside » Thu Jul 18, 2019 9:34 am

DarthNater wrote:
Thu Jul 18, 2019 7:39 am
22Inside wrote:
Wed Jul 17, 2019 8:22 am
I've been trying to work in a HW strategy to my betting and what I've settled on lately is to bet the HW as the numbers are thrown, and upping the bet by $1 each time the number is tossed. So the first time an even box number is thrown, regardless of whether it came hard or not, I'll toss out a $1 HW bet on it. This includes numbers thrown to set a point. The next hit on that number, if it comes easy, I'll bump the HW bet to $2, Third hit, $3, etc.
22I,
The Hardway Heatseeker, I see. So if I'm reading it right, when a number is thrown soft, you bump it up a buck - i.e. $1 hard 8, toss is a soft 8, the $1 goes down and is replaced by $2; then if again - it's replaced by $3 etc. I know you've already placed the 6 & 8 (and likely the 4 & 10) - so you use those hits to feed the replacement of that hardway bet. I'm presuming this is only on DIs ?
RIght on both counts Nate. Only on other DIs. Up a buck when number is thrown soft. Since I'm generally on even numbers, the winnings are helping to fuel the HW replacement bets.
DarthNater wrote:
Thu Jul 18, 2019 7:39 am
Have you thought of initially betting all 4 hardways? I've been wargaming more of a "see a hardway - bet all 4 hardways approach"; if only for the reason that when I'm tossing I'll get 3-4 hardways in like a small range. But, I always seem to come back to: if you're gonna bet them - get the money out there early; afterall, this ain't the five count
Actually I have been thinking about this lately, as I've been seeing a lot of initial HW hits in my practice sessions. The approach I was thinking of was to bet all HW's initially for $1. If the first hit comes soft, replace it with $1 and then I'm into the up a buck on each subsequent soft hit of that number.

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Re: How do YOU play the hardways?

Post by rhythm roller » Thu Jul 18, 2019 10:17 am

22, Darth, Big O,

Are you gentlemen consistent with working or off on fhe come out or is it some of both when you bet hardways? Thanks!
"The difference between try and triumph is a little umph."

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Big O
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Re: How do YOU play the hardways?

Post by Big O » Thu Jul 18, 2019 11:25 am

rhythm roller,
my play is strictly scientific,... what ever that little voice in my head says at the time. If they get pressed up over a nickel i would probably be off on the comeout.
"if it was easy anyone could do it"

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DarthNater
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Re: How do YOU play the hardways?

Post by DarthNater » Thu Jul 18, 2019 11:28 am

rhythm roller wrote:
Thu Jul 18, 2019 10:17 am
22, Darth, Big O,

Are you gentlemen consistent with working or off on fhe come out or is it some of both when you bet hardways? Thanks!
RR -
For me it depends. On the first come-out, I'm usually doing my GWTG action snipping for horns via a world bet - then I'm off generally; as I get come-out sevens on occasion which honks up my repeater bets, or ATS bets unfortunately. My last trip to LV saw both Bally's & Paris saying minimum $5 in the center for ATS (still $1 at Cromwell) and repeaters. As I play Bally's frequently, I'm rethinking that. However once into a hand on future come-outs, I stick with my point set, not the come-out set; so theoretically I should always work them as I treat it as just another toss to me since I'm shooting for numbers. Some houses leave them on, so I stay on; for those that turn them off automatically, I usually roll with that - as I want the stick to stop marking all those bets and give me the dice.

I know that's not a black & white answer, and its getting even grayer for me - as I've observed that my most frequent number (not a world) result on the first come-out is a hard 10 or a hard 4. I get those a lot for my first point; so a working hard 4 or 10 bet with the other first come-out action is something I'm considering.

D.N8r
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22Inside
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Re: How do YOU play the hardways?

Post by 22Inside » Thu Jul 18, 2019 12:01 pm

Nate, I didn't realize you didn't play your GWAG after the initial come out. Interesting.

For me, I'm generally off on the come out. What I will do is if an individual HW is pressed up from a previous hit, I'll hop the hardway on the comeout.

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Re: How do YOU play the hardways?

Post by 22Inside » Thu Jul 18, 2019 12:05 pm

22Inside wrote:
Thu Jul 18, 2019 9:34 am
DarthNater wrote:
Thu Jul 18, 2019 7:39 am
Have you thought of initially betting all 4 hardways? I've been wargaming more of a "see a hardway - bet all 4 hardways approach"; if only for the reason that when I'm tossing I'll get 3-4 hardways in like a small range. But, I always seem to come back to: if you're gonna bet them - get the money out there early; afterall, this ain't the five count
Actually I have been thinking about this lately, as I've been seeing a lot of initial HW hits in my practice sessions. The approach I was thinking of was to bet all HW's initially for $1. If the first hit comes soft, replace it with $1 and then I'm into the up a buck on each subsequent soft hit of that number.
Ok, so how's this for confirmation bias? I just tossed a quick hand over lunch and tried this out. $66 even, $1 HW bets. 2V set. Set a point of 8. Then tossed hard 4, hard 4, hard 10. Parlayed the first hard 4. Next hit I pressed it to $25 and racked the rest. Parlayed the hard 10 when it hit.

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