The All, Small or Tall Bet

Setting and influencing the dice roll is just part of the picture. To beat the dice you have to know how to bet the dice. Whether you call it a "system," a "strategy," or just a way to play - this is the place to discuss it.

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Re: The All, Small or Tall Bet

Post by heavy » Thu Apr 17, 2014 10:50 pm

It is what I sometimes refer to as an "entertainment" bet. For dice influencers - it's a bit of a challenge that makes the game more interesting - and entertaining.
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Re: The All, Small or Tall Bet

Post by heavy » Fri Jul 20, 2018 9:17 pm

Well, it's time once again to expend a little effort on the All Small Tall or "Bonus" Bet. Do you bet it or not? SHOULD you bet it or not? If you DO bet it - what's your typical bet when YOU have the dice. How much do you bet when another DI has the dice? And last of all, how much do you bet on it when Randy has the dice? Want to take it further? Let's pretend this is the trip report sub-board and tell us your best ATS story.

Going another direction - I'm considering STRONGLY encouraging my seminar attendees NOT to bet the ATS during our live casino sessions - but if they MUST bet the ATS to keep the bet sizes at a $5-$5-$5 minimum. Why? Because if you can't afford to bet it at that level you probably don't need to be betting it at all anyway. Also, as is the bet slows the game down to a crawl so you can't get a rhythm and flow going in the game. I'd rather see 60 decisions an hour than 12.

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Re: The All, Small or Tall Bet

Post by wild child » Sat Jul 21, 2018 12:28 pm

heavy wrote:
Fri Jul 20, 2018 9:17 pm
Well, it's time once again to expend a little effort on the All Small Tall or "Bonus" Bet. Do you bet it or not? SHOULD you bet it or not? If you DO bet it - what's your typical bet when YOU have the dice. How much do you bet when another DI has the dice? And last of all, how much do you bet on it when Randy has the dice? Want to take it further? Let's pretend this is the trip report sub-board and tell us your best ATS story.

Going another direction - I'm considering STRONGLY encouraging my seminar attendees NOT to bet the ATS during our live casino sessions - but if they MUST bet the ATS to keep the bet sizes at a $5-$5-$5 minimum. Why? Because if you can't afford to bet it at that level you probably don't need to be betting it at all anyway. Also, as is the bet slows the game down to a crawl so you can't get a rhythm and flow going in the game. I'd rather see 60 decisions an hour than 12.

Thoughts? Inquiring minds want to know . . .
Heavy

There ought to be a law against ALL the Carnival / Sucker Bets
for just the reasons you stated above.

just me saying
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Re: The All, Small or Tall Bet

Post by House of Orange » Sat Jul 21, 2018 1:48 pm

ATS is for people who have little talent and need lotsa luck, especially with the 20% vig. if you dont have a way of rolling 2's and 12's, sucks to be you.
Then the issue of losing your comeout game of throwing sevens, in order to not throw sevens. That said I'm pretty good at hitting at least half, when i'm not on it.

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Re: The All, Small or Tall Bet

Post by rhythm roller » Sat Jul 21, 2018 3:26 pm

Heavy,
I am not an ATS bettor so I would certainly be in favor of banning that bet at seminars with no problem. On the other hand, I am curious if you would have any enticements or suggestions for the people who do like it? Can you give suggestions that might be a much better way to get that money on the table at DI sessions? At the end of the day they may have made just as much from that money by betting it differently? Just wonder if "try this not that" and the power of persuasion could help you in your cause?
"The difference between try and triumph is a little umph."

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Re: The All, Small or Tall Bet

Post by Bankerdude80 » Sat Jul 21, 2018 3:32 pm

heavy wrote:
Fri Jul 20, 2018 9:17 pm
Going another direction - I'm considering STRONGLY encouraging my seminar attendees NOT to bet the ATS during our live casino sessions - but if they MUST bet the ATS to keep the bet sizes at a $5-$5-$5 minimum.
Just so happens on my last visit to Vegas (at the beginning of this month) I tossed a mini-monster at ARIA. They require $5 min on the ATS. Did I bet it? Nope. Did I hit it? Yep. In the long run, it does slow the game down and it is a grind on the BR. I bought in for $300 at an empty table. I shoot from SO at SR. I start a hand and make my first pass before sevening out. I'm looking for an ideal LZ. Two more players step up at SR 1 & 2. They get the dice next. I bet 2 consecutive $10 naked DC's on each of these guys while I wait for my next turn with the dice. These guys establish their point, hit a couple of box numbers, then the seven. Good for me. Six more players step up and buy in at opposite end of table. I let out a *SIGH*. I decide I'll toss one more time and then color up. I continue with my DC betting until I get the dice. Short hands for all of them.

I finally get the dice, find my LZ, and end up holding the dice for about 30 minutes. I color up for a little over $1K. I played my Game within a game (GWAG). During one come out game, I bet my $5 world and $1 ace-deuce. I tossed a 3-3-7-2-11-7-12 before establishing my point. Each time I pressed the World bet $5. THAT was a nice payoff. Only one guy was on the ATS when I tossed this hand, and he was betting the six and eight for $600 each. He initially waited for one hit and came down right away. When he saw me banging the six and eight multiple times, he went back up on them. He just collected, no additional pressing. After the hand was over he turns to me and says, "Thank you, that was some nice shooting." I respond with, "Yep, it was. You're welcome." He smiled and patted my shoulder as he left the table, "Thanks again." Come to think of it, that's one of the best player interactions to have at a table. Recognition and gratitude is always nice.
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Re: The All, Small or Tall Bet

Post by heavy » Sat Jul 21, 2018 3:53 pm

Don't get me wrong. I've hit it with $5-5-5 on it as well - just 83 miles from my front door. Took me less than twenty minutes to do it. But I still think the dollar bettors should lay off it.
A player had a hardway bet with a dealer piggyback bet on it. The HW hit. The payoff and the new adjusted bet literally took about 5 mins to complete.
Then you had a problem with a weak stickman, weak boxman, or both. Hey, I'm not a dealer but I can pay it in under thirty seconds if the bet was set up correctly. If you played $25 on the hard eight and it hit you get nine green chips. If it was the hard ten you get seven. If you had $26 on it then you get nine green chips and nine white chips. Once I had that sorted out I might substitute one red for five white but the bottom line is - these guys take WAY too long to pay the hardways.
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Re: The All, Small or Tall Bet

Post by Big O » Sat Jul 21, 2018 10:29 pm

I think many craps players have a Love/Hate relationship with the ATS.
Heavy said,
it's a bit of a challenge that makes the game more interesting - and entertaining.
I'm considering STRONGLY encouraging my seminar attendees NOT to bet the ATS during our live casino sessions
These 2 statements were made years apart and though they seem on the surface to be contradictory i dont consider them so. I just think it shows the wide range of thoughts toward the ATS.

I think i love to hate it. Love it when i hit it, hate it when i knock it down on a CO7 only to set it up and do it again with back to back 7s. I will admit i am a sucker for the bet ,but rightfully so. The first business trip that i played craps on i hit it on back to back hands. The first hand i made a pass on a longish hand hitting a point of 5. I made $20 for my 5 dollar pass line and 10 odds. I was happy until they gave the guy in the hook over $2000. He promptly colored up and left. I asked the box what that guy bet and he said ATS. That meant nothing to me and rather than show my ignorance i just finished the hand. There were just three other shooters and no one was playing it i couldnt figure out what the ATS was.

When the dice came back to me the other players started betting 5,5,5 and 2,1,2 so again I asked what was that bet the guy made a while ago that got paid 2000+. He said ",ATS, these numbers up here. You want to bet it you hit it last time" So i go up 2-2-2. I was setting the dice and trying my best to toss consistently but i really didnt know what i was doing. I was just mimicking what i had seen a guy do the night before that seemed to toss better than everyone else. This hand was longer than the other one and when i finally hit it my 100 buy in looked like 800. By far the most money i had ever won and i thought i had found the golden goose.

Now sometimes i feel like a goose getting plucked.
I think the biggest negative affect it can have on the game for DIs is the effect it can have on a shooters focus on his toss. I dont have the problem with the bet slowing the game down that some do. I think the middle prop action is much more of a distraction than the ATS. The ATS is made before the hand starts and it just sets there until there is a payout. I dont mind waiting a few minutes to get a 1200 payout. No body is tossing in late ATS bets or changing them in the middle of EACH toss. Except on a come out 7 all of the other resets come when the 7 hits and the whole table is stopped to clear bets.

Try tossing 2 hardways back to back and chips will come flying in from everywhere. I even got hit in the hand with a late hardway bet after i had the dice on my last trip. Press the H10 not the hard 8,are you working on the come out bob, how about you joe. Hard 4 is down. Every toss there is action and slow down in the middle of the table while the Ats just sets at the top with no changes.

I rarely bet it on randies, but i have and i have collected on it. As far as playing with a group of DIs at a seminar or just at a get together, It seems to me not to play the bet with a group of people that you expect to have longer than average hands is counter-intuitive. I know DIs dont hit it often either but they dont throw 22 8s often either. If you think you have and edge bet it. If you dont, dont. Before my last trip i was struggling whether to bet it or not. It hadnt been good to me the last couple of trips and i thought that money might be better wagered on something else. I did say i was a sucker for the bet right? I played it mostly on myself. I collected on 4 halves(two by randies) for 400 plus dollars. I finished the trip up 200.
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Re: The All, Small or Tall Bet

Post by Bankerdude80 » Sun Jul 22, 2018 8:26 am

I consider the ATS more of a entertainment bet. I don't toss any differently. If you hold the dice for a long enough period of time, you sometimes end up hitting it. I usually bet it for $2-$1-$2 on myself, or $1-$1-$1 on known DI's. $5-$5-$5 is too rich for me when it's at risk with those come out sevens.

I do know one thing, if you're at a table with 22inside and he's shooting, always bet the ATS if it's on the layout.
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Re: The All, Small or Tall Bet

Post by dork » Sun Jul 22, 2018 1:06 pm

The last time I tossed the dice either I got lucky or I actually DI'd the ATS. With only the 2 & 12 wanting, I turned off all my bets, reset from V3 to X6's and threw 2, 2, 4, 9, 12 as I recall. Later the same day I needed the 12 and reset for it again and hit it in ~2-3 rolls I think it was. A REAL lucky day or my new-found devoted focus to the target area paid off. Whichever, I usually play the ATS 2-1-2 on assumed DIs and myself. Since those wins though, I've been reading here. I'ma wondering if I'm gonna continue. Heavy's posted some numbers somewhere and others testify about better DIs than I concluding through live research that the ATS can't be beaten enough to show a profit.

As to the table delays... slow payoffs and other slow dealer/bettor interactions don't usually bother me. Hands inside the rail and late thrown-in bets do, but slow transactions don't hardly, no matter how long it may take so long as it isn't an imposing flagrant lack of etiquette that has me double-clutching the dice in mid-toss. I'll even tune out all the other upset bettors who push with their "let's go, keep the game moving" sentiment. It's "just" a matter of training and expectations I think...

Some of ya'll know I've traveled to Japan several times. I've gotten to understand the cultural/social expectations and practices-- in the beginning it was fumingly exasperating. "Business dealings" or some unanticipated action/error would mandate that "a decision has to be made TODAY"; so we'd have to gather the managers of the different departments for a meeting; wring hands and discuss alternatives--then the one or two men in charge who can actually make the final decision decide to table it and designate others to do more research--"go see so-and-so who mentioned a different idea last week"... It was not unlike the essence of a NASA/Lockheed session: a panic-get-it-done meeting /assemble the money, brains, and muscle / oh, we forgot X / hurry up and wait on X; that could take 10 minutes; it could be next week. (yes, NASA and Lockheed can be very much like Japanese society/bidness in their management approach).

The jist of these experiences taught me that I would more easily maintain my sanity and calm by learning to adapt to a "hurry without a schedule" mentality; always ready to turn "on", but never "always on the edge of my seat". As the saying goes about other things, "in good time". Relax and hold yourself in readiness. It's like a hostage situation--pressure mounts superficially or there's an "imperative" because someone sets a timetable. Don't.

Years ago I had a heart attack. The doctor saw me in the afternoon the next day and reviewed his previous rundown on the anticipated procedures/possibilities--"you remember we talked about the three alternatives--1) after observation it's possible that you would stabilize and we'd send you home with some medications to maintain your status for further testing next week.. or 2) we could recommend medications that would stabilize you and continue with them on a regular basis... ahem.. uh..."

"Yeah. I noticed you said "three", but you only discussed two. You never mentioned #3, which I assumed is surgery, and now that we're here, it seems like you're leading beyond the first two, to cutting, yes?"

"Yes."

"Obviously, 'bypass surgery' yes?... how many?"

"Three; a triple bypass."

"Okay. What time and how soon?"

"Tomorrow morning, probably around 8am."

"Okay."

"Do you have any questions?"

"Nope. Thank you, doctor."

"NONE!??"

"No... if I need it I need it. If I don't survive it, what difference does it make to fret before tomorrow... when I wake up, I'll know I survived the surgery and you'll tell me if it was successful then."

"Hm. Well, I'll see you in the morning then."

Many days later he told me that he was astounded at my unemotional reaction; that the majority of patients have some kind of objection or reaction- insisting on more info, maybe a 2nd opinion, desiring a delay to "get ready" (w/maybe some time to "make arrangements"), etc.

All the years of "hurry up and wait" conditioned my psyche to not "anticipate" timetables. Whatever a dealer has to do to finish a transaction, s/he'll do it in their own time--faster, if they're quite experienced, and possibly slower than me if they're wet-behind-the-ears new. I can't control that, and burning psychological energy over it brings nothing so I just ease off. That's the way I handle middle bet delays.

What I HAVE to remember is to turn FULL ON after the ATS payoff... I've 7'd twice on the next throw, and twice more within 5-12 throws after I've been paid for the ATS. It's always felt like my after-ATS toss was focused, but either stinky luck or no focus has 7'd me twice. The regular middle bets, not so much of a distraction, but the big $300 ATS payoff, ahhh...damn; bit me twice.

And I think to myself, "Argh. No discipline. Where's your discipline!?" And my thought there would be--that's what kept me patient through the long waits; I just need the mirror side of that for the big ATS slow down.

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Re: The All, Small or Tall Bet

Post by memo » Wed Jul 25, 2018 9:27 am

dork wrote:
Sun Jul 22, 2018 1:06 pm

What I HAVE to remember is to turn FULL ON after the ATS payoff... I've 7'd twice on the next throw, and twice more within 5-12 throws after I've been paid for the ATS. It's always felt like my after-ATS toss was focused, but either stinky luck or no focus has 7'd me twice. The regular middle bets, not so much of a distraction, but the big $300 ATS payoff, ahhh...damn; bit me twice.

And I think to myself, "Argh. No discipline. Where's your discipline!?" And my thought there would be--that's what kept me patient through the long waits; I just need the mirror side of that for the big ATS slow down.
Dork...
Great post..!
Gives me a lot to think about..Life in general.
I have now decided to travel to Japan...Well, no not really. That was not the message.

As to your statement above...Be careful not to engrain the thought into your attitude. It can become a self fulfilling result. If you think you will end the hand after an ATS payoff, you will. With so much success managing a way to make the ATS...I would consider something like Heavy has been writing about lately...Left side right side brain management. Get out of the left side crap that says " I've 7'd twice on the next throw, and twice more within 5-12 throws after I've been paid for the ATS. "
Get into right brain that says...Take a breath and visualize what got you here...
Just yesterday I reread something that Irish said...
'There is a one in six chance the seven will roll on the next toss'...
That is really what happened....A little right brain focus will become a cure. Focus with left side and ATS success will always end your hand. Ask me how I know.
It is the game we play and I still love it.

Memo

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Re: The All, Small or Tall Bet

Post by DarthNater » Wed Jul 25, 2018 8:43 pm

heavy wrote:
Fri Jul 20, 2018 9:17 pm

Going another direction - I'm considering STRONGLY encouraging my seminar attendees NOT to bet the ATS during our live casino sessions - but if they MUST bet the ATS to keep the bet sizes at a $5-$5-$5 minimum. Why? Because if you can't afford to bet it at that level you probably don't need to be betting it at all anyway. Also, as is the bet slows the game down to a crawl so you can't get a rhythm and flow going in the game. I'd rather see 60 decisions an hour than 12.

Thoughts? Inquiring minds want to know . . .
I can't imagine any slower game that the Sunday World Bet Frenzy that we created at the Gold Coast on Fathers Day weekend & that had repeaters instead of the ATS. 22Inside tossed three yo's with an ace-deuce in the middle. My World Bet had pressed to $100. That sequence of four turned a breakeven session into a nice win for the Nate-ster. For me when we have a group session that's the time to make these kinda plays - We had some seriously good shooters, who know how to concentrate and get thru the snail's pace - so I say go for it!

Besides, Heavy - if you've see three horns in a row and haven't already bet the horn by then - then I gotta hope you haven't been possessed by Zombie Heavy

D.N8r
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Re: The All, Small or Tall Bet

Post by Cap-n_Lou » Wed Jul 25, 2018 10:56 pm

While I admit to betting the A-T-S on occasion, I also hate how it slows the game down. But in the grand scheme of things, don't those bets and indeed all prop bets and the ridiculous vigs the casino earns on them effectively subsidize the much fairer and reasonable bets that we all prefer - the true odds, don'ts, inside nos., etc.? I'm guessing the casinos would be less willing to offer as many craps tables and dedicate as many dealers to them if only the "smart" bets were available ...

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Re: The All, Small or Tall Bet

Post by heavy » Thu Jul 26, 2018 10:37 am

Well, truth is I don't know the answer to that, Lou. Although these bets have a vig in the 20% range, they slow the game down to a crawl. You'd have to do the math on the speed of a full table with the bet - and without the bet - then look at the presumed win for the house each way. Of course, they could just look at historical records of the table's hold before and after and know the answer as to whether the bet was worthwhile from a financial standpoint after they pay the company that owns that layout their commission.
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Re: The All, Small or Tall Bet

Post by dork » Thu Jul 26, 2018 12:44 pm

Thanks for that, Memo!

I ran into a real "delay" during my last table session. I know I'm 'post to be more PC and tolerant of folks more "unfortunate" than me, but this guy takes the cake for unintended delays. He was wheel-chair bound, it seemed he was extremely introverted, and spastic. Or at least, possibly afflicted with Parkinson's with an extremely sore throat. ha.

I know his life can't be no fun AT ALL, ALL the time, and I kept that in mind while I stayed, but even with my understood sense of "hurry up w/o a schedule" he almost got to me. He was certainly exasperating to many players and to the box, dealer, and stick.

I think he was absolutely wheel-chair bound--he couldn't rise up to see the table. He'd drop his money behind the Pass Line and mumble. The guy was dropping ~$40 in red chips to bet DP and odds. REALLY quietly. He was so quiet the bettor two guys over said "I can't hear him" while attempting to listen to help the dealer. That dealer was constantly getting louder and demanding "you're gonna have to speak up; I don't read minds" after several different bets were dropped onto the felt (when Mr SLOOWhand wasn't the shooter).

It was the stickman who had to "hit the target area" with the dice, because the guy couldn't see the table under his nose. The second time the dice came to him, everyone knew to shut up so the dealer could hear and execute his bet. He'd feel around to find the dice like he was blind (which in essence, he was). When his fingers would approach the felt, the stick would tweak his target and push the dice some more; a real 'operation' trying to cooperate with a wandering hand. Then with an extreme tremor in his hand, he'd lift each dice up singly to see the pips, put each one down, paw to align them, correct himself, lift the dice and inspect them again, lower his arm towards the table and practice his arc, and throw into the Hardways. He never threw past the 'E' in COME on the far side. (He was shooting from SO on the right.) Hell, three or four times, the dice didn't get to the HWs but just past the 'C' on his side. Can you say, "RANDOM ROLLER!!???" aside from his attempted setting of the dice, there was nothing practiced about his launch, arc, etc. THAT ticked a coupla guys off.

I pulled out my watch and timed him a couple times. 1 minute 43 seconds from the time he dropped his money until he let go of the dice. Thankfully, he was a don't bettor who only made the one bet and odds (on hisself). His next throw involved no bet on his part so that only took 73 seconds from the time the stick stopped pushin' the dice to when the bettor tossed them. There was a lot of quiet grumbling but the entire crowd and employees tolerated him--though it was becoming obvious the dealers felt he was wearing out his welcome. ("Next time your money hits the table, if I don't hear anything, it's a no bet. I'm not askin' anymore." Wow.) I was maybe surprised at that. I think like everyone else, I didn't quite know how to react as a matter of "etiquette and tolerance". Mebbe Japan has rubbed off on me... HA. ... I wouldn't have forced myself on a buncha people like he did. It'd be like holding up the airline gangway by leading the pack on crutches and pulling a wheeled suitcase.

But, once the table filled up, hot or not, I quit. 14 players. That's the most I've ever seen on a table I'm playing. 'Way too much waitin' around on RR's then for me.

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Re: The All, Small or Tall Bet

Post by Cap-n_Lou » Thu Jul 26, 2018 11:25 pm

heavy wrote:
Thu Jul 26, 2018 10:37 am
Well, truth is I don't know the answer to that, Lou. Although these bets have a vig in the 20% range, they slow the game down to a crawl. You'd have to do the math on the speed of a full table with the bet - and without the bet - then look at the presumed win for the house each way. Of course, they could just look at historical records of the table's hold before and after and know the answer as to whether the bet was worthwhile from a financial standpoint after they pay the company that owns that layout their commission.
Good point. I guessing the casinos have done the math ...

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Re: The All, Small or Tall Bet

Post by Dicepops » Sun Jul 29, 2018 12:13 am

20% Vig!!! OMG...
Plan your play...and...PLAY that PLAN! Not the casino's plan. Not the dealer's plan. Not the other player's plan. Not other Board members' plan. YOUR plan! Own it and do it!!!

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Re: The All, Small or Tall Bet

Post by Dicepops » Sun Jul 29, 2018 9:03 am

Plan your play...and...PLAY that PLAN! Not the casino's plan. Not the dealer's plan. Not the other player's plan. Not other Board members' plan. YOUR plan! Own it and do it!!!

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Re: The All, Small or Tall Bet

Post by 22Inside » Sun Jul 29, 2018 9:52 am

Dicepops wrote:
Sun Jul 29, 2018 9:03 am
wizards newest ATS numbers; https://wizardofodds.com/games/craps/appendix/5/
Which goes to show just how much of an effect the new lower payout ATS bets (30-150-30) have on the house advantage compared with the original higher payout (35-175-35) bets that are getting more and more difficult to find.

That $5 reduced payout on the Small and Tall changes the HA from 7.76% to 18.3%
For the all, the lower payout increases the HA from 7.47% to 20.61%

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Re: The All, Small or Tall Bet

Post by heavy » Sun Jul 29, 2018 11:42 am

Any other reasons we should avoid this bet?
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