The All, Small or Tall Bet

Setting and influencing the dice roll is just part of the picture. To beat the dice you have to know how to bet the dice. Whether you call it a "system," a "strategy," or just a way to play - this is the place to discuss it.

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Tgold
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Re: The All, Small or Tall Bet

Post by Tgold » Fri Feb 21, 2020 2:02 am

Hi DarthNater
I like how you track your practice/analyze the data.
It will be interesting to see the final data.

?Once you enter a book into bonetracker and adjust your dice set --How often do you reassess the BT info and adjust your set? or do you stay with a set until it quits performing above expectation?


Thx

All the best
Tgold
All the best,
Tgold

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DarthNater
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Re: The All, Small or Tall Bet

Post by DarthNater » Fri Feb 21, 2020 12:28 pm

Tgold wrote:
Fri Feb 21, 2020 2:02 am
Hi DarthNater
I like how you track your practice/analyze the data.
It will be interesting to see the final data.

Once you enter a book into bonetracker and adjust your dice set --How often do you reassess the BT info and adjust your set? or do you stay with a set until it quits performing above expectation?

Thx
All the best
Tgold
Tgold,
I have 3 more sessions to go to complete the book. I will likely publish some set transposition analytics once I sift thru all the information. My process to date has always been to look for the set(s) that give me advantage(s) in specific circumstances; then go thru some practice sessions with the new sets as I can always transpose them for continuity validation. This time is a bit different since this is my first time booking from straight out, so I expect an iterative process.

I'm not much in to switching sets, for me, when its not working - it's the tosser, not the set. Yeah sure there's a bunch of crappy tables out there, but I don't read too much into tables I don't know well. But on a known layout I diagnose in real time. For example when I use my V-3 mutant and get a hard ten or hard four, I know its because my left die went off axis - so as much as I might like those numbers - seeing that usually means my grip is off - and I focus on that the next toss. Now I will occasionally swap between the V-2 & the V-3 sets, as I think my V-2 works better on microfibre. That's a recon thing, that I like to sort thru when I'm learning a new table

DN8R
Your lack of faith in The Force disturbs me, Commander.......

Riggs
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Re: The All, Small or Tall Bet

Post by Riggs » Fri Feb 21, 2020 8:05 pm

Do any of you bet the ATS when it's the 34-175-34 and not bet it at 30-150-30?

DanF
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Re: The All, Small or Tall Bet

Post by DanF » Sun Feb 23, 2020 10:02 am

Tgold wrote:
Tue Feb 18, 2020 11:31 am
DarthNater:

".. I will war game the three field parlay as the V-2 is pumping them out..."

"...My GWAG has been pumping out a lot of Yo's recently, but has gone dry on 2/12,.."

My only reservation with using the x6 on the wager I indicated above(F,9, and T) is that it is great for the high numbers, yet deficient on the 10. I commonly need that for my Tall win, and debate switching to the V-2 or 6-4/4-6 to tag the 10. Typically I just stay with the x6 as by that stage Ive been fortunate enough to avoid the 7 for at least 10-12 tosses.


All the best,
Tgold
IMHO if you're a true DI, staying on the same set to hit the bonus bet you are hurting yourself. You typically will nail 3-4 numbers over and over. So if you want to hunt the bonus bet you better switch sets...anyway it shouldn't show more sevens if you switch sets or rotate it. It should just show 1-2 new numbers.

Now if you feel you'd like to stick to your set. Don't bet the bonus. When I want to hunt the bonus now I switch from x6, 2v, 3v every roll. Mostly will all show more 6-8 and hit a specific number. When I get one side of the bonus running I focus a specific number and stop switching set.

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DarthNater
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Re: The All, Small or Tall Bet

Post by DarthNater » Sun Feb 23, 2020 2:24 pm

DanF wrote:
Sun Feb 23, 2020 10:02 am

IMHO if you're a true DI, staying on the same set to hit the bonus bet you are hurting yourself. You typically will nail 3-4 numbers over and over. So if you want to hunt the bonus bet you better switch sets...anyway it shouldn't show more sevens if you switch sets or rotate it. It should just show 1-2 new numbers.

Now if you feel you'd like to stick to your set. Don't bet the bonus. When I want to hunt the bonus now I switch from x6, 2v, 3v every roll. Mostly will all show more 6-8 and hit a specific number. When I get one side of the bonus running I focus a specific number and stop switching set.
DanF,
I'm coming around to that perspective. It's taken me awhile to get there, though playing more at the same few places has helped me to see the value in that thinking. I'm still working out some of the stuff between my ears when it comes to switching sets in mid-roll. Playing nearly everyday this past two weeks has helped me in the that and I expect that once I do finish my straight out book things will accelerate more. With those analytics, I'm expecting to evolve to more of a sniper (see my note above about the $900 Bellagio toss); then I should have a more advanced plan. It's all part of the journey.

BTW what's your betting strategy on the bonus and how do you approach things - beginning with the come-out - then what are your triggers for full on sniper mode?

Thanks, D.N8R
Your lack of faith in The Force disturbs me, Commander.......

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Big O
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Re: The All, Small or Tall Bet

Post by Big O » Sun Feb 23, 2020 2:29 pm

When I want to hunt the bonus now I switch from x6, 2v, 3v every roll.


i think to do this without hurting your concentration or "mogo", you have to practice it on a regular basis so it becomes a confident attacking type move, not a hope or desperation move to bring the last numbers of an ATS. You need to be able to do it as fluidly as if you didnt change anything. I play it both ways. The length of the hand comes into play. What numbers i am rolling and what bets are pressed up to and my general state of mind at the table.

Sometimes i switch on the comeout as DarthNader suggested. Other times switch for just one or two rolls and switch back. I have won and lost switching and staying with one set. I am less likely to change on a busy table with lots of distractions going on.

If i start to toss the exact same number (not just value but same number on each die) and i know that if i change one die and roll the same number again it will bring the number i need i will do it.

I probably change permutations of the set i am using more than i change sets. I do agree if you are going to bet the ATS, especially on $5 minimums you need to be trying to hit it. Otherwise put it out of your mind and concentrate on your key numbers.
"if it was easy anyone could do it"

Tgold
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Re: The All, Small or Tall Bet

Post by Tgold » Sat Feb 29, 2020 5:09 pm

Good comments DanF,BigO, DarthN et al.

The dilemma of "do I switch sets to hit the ATS" is obviously ex post facto. i.e, If we are debating at that stage we have already placed the bonus wager. The main question at that stage is "how much do I have on this particular bonus wager?" relative to ones wager size on the box#s.

Personally the $2-5 bonus wager is such a small % of my box# AND significantly less probable. So I am more likely to base my decision on (NOT my $2 wager on S or T and its low probability/high HE).

That brings us to my next thought: What amount on the the A,T,or S warrants a change of dice sets to theoretically have a higher probability of winning the bonus wager that may or may not produce a larger win vs box#, and most importantly a higher ROI.

Points To Ponder:

I don't play the following way, however, I cross paths every three weeks with a fellow dier that makes the ATS his primary wager. He uses two box#s to fuel the bonus bet. He is a very excellent shooter and it appears to perform well. For example, if table max for ATS is say 10-10-10 he starts shooting with two box#s at $50 and or 54. If the table max is $25 each then he will start two wagers at approx. $75 each. He does not press the box #s unitl at least three hits. The logic is if he can avg >= two hits per hand the box# payouts will replace themselves plus fuel the bonus wagers on his next hand.
Once he gets that third box# hit he starts a methodical up/out on box#s. He feels he can collect a Win on a Side(SorT) with only a <=10-14 hand and can easily fit an ALL win within a <=15-20 range hand. He seldom wagers on Fire.

Ive observed him win several times and color up $3k--$6k, once at $17K. Consider how many rolls our hand must go to hit an inside # enough times to press a $50wager high enough to put $3k--4k in the rack. Unless we are always working its common to see an 8 hit five times yet we only collected 3 or 4 payouts.

I was skeptical at first , however, it may warrant additional thoughts.
Any ideas or opinions?

What are the merits to stagger our wagers (e.g., $5-10-5, or 10-5-10. or 20-15-25 and go for the T, ..etc). Consider how many times we observe a shooter (rr and di) casually tag one side in a commonly-observed 9-12 toss hand.

Does anyone wager the bonus in a similar manner?

Again I don't play this way (and havnt tested). I will likely test to see how wagering only one side (S orT) at a larger amount will perform. As most of us will agree sometimes variance can allow mega profitable hands. An occasional ATS win may swamp the win size we commonly see on our two $50 box# doing a back/forth press-regress wins of maybe $150-250. My hope would be that I can keep the Buyin fluctuating near even or only slightly neg until I can hit a Side win.

Thx everyone.



All the best,
Tgold
All the best,
Tgold

Tgold
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Re: The All, Small or Tall Bet

Post by Tgold » Sat Feb 29, 2020 5:27 pm

Hi Riggs

Your Q: "...Do any of you bet the ATS when it's the 34-175-34 and not bet it at 30-150-30?.."

I seldom wager the ATS(only a side or sides) and then only very few times even on the typical 35-175-35.

I refuse to wager this lower payout(30-150-30) as the casinos will continue to gouge on other wagers too(if we tolerate it). Same on a F12 x2 and paying commish on front end for a buy/lay, ...etc.

Thx

All the best,
Tgold
All the best,
Tgold

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DarthNater
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Re: The All, Small or Tall Bet

Post by DarthNater » Sat Feb 29, 2020 9:33 pm

Tgold wrote:
Sat Feb 29, 2020 5:27 pm

I seldom wager the ATS(only a side or sides) and then only very few times even on the typical 35-175-35.
Where do they still have the 35-175-35???

DN8R
Your lack of faith in The Force disturbs me, Commander.......

22Inside
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Re: The All, Small or Tall Bet

Post by 22Inside » Sat Feb 29, 2020 9:57 pm

Some places in Biloxi, AC and CT.

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Big O
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Re: The All, Small or Tall Bet

Post by Big O » Sat Feb 29, 2020 10:03 pm

In Reno GSR
"if it was easy anyone could do it"

DanF
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Re: The All, Small or Tall Bet

Post by DanF » Sat Feb 29, 2020 10:07 pm

22Inside wrote:
Sat Feb 29, 2020 9:57 pm
Some places in Biloxi, AC and CT.
NY state also.

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