No Two persons Are Alike

The forum name says it all. You're new to the game of craps and don't have a clue where to begin. Pass Line. Don't Pass. Come. Don't Come. Hardways. Big Six. Big Eight. The Horn. Good Grief! Sounds like back when you were trying to make a decision about what to do in the back seat on that first car date. Well never fear! There are a few folks around here who have spent enough time at the tables to be able to answer just about any question you may have. So step right up and get a clue!

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tenpin
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No Two persons Are Alike

Post by tenpin » Sun Jun 21, 2020 2:34 pm

I made a post yesterday about our trip to Lake Charles and in that post I made reference to my opinion on playing conditions at both the Horseshoe in Bossier City and the Golden Nugget compared to others that has played in these casinos as well. It was Big O that asked the question and those were my answers to him. Please note that my opinions and answers were not a reflection nor criticisms against any person but I used Heavy's name because everyone on this forum knows who he is. However, I am in no way saying that Heavy was wrong in his opinion when he made those statements in his post about the Horseshoe not being playable.

My main objective of making this post is this ... in any athletic or sports endeavor those that compete in their particular field are GREAT because they understood their very own limitations and abilities versus others. Here are a few examples of what I am trying to say about this ... in baseball take Nolan Ryan vs Sandy Koufax ... both are Hall of Fame members but yet their pitching style was completely different from each other in the manner which they threw the ball and their motion in the delivery was also different. In bowling (this for Riggs,lol) Earl Anthony vs Dick Weber ... again both Hall of Fame members in their sport but yet were different in their delivery and the amount of rotation used in their respective bowling style. In basketball ... Michael Jordan vs Magic Johnson ... both Hall of Fame members but yet possessed a different style of shooting, running and mannerisms. And lastly for this illustration Golf ... Lee Trevino vs Arnold Palmer vs Jack Nicklaus ... All Great and Hall of Fame members but yet none had the same mannerisms in how they swung the golf club nor how they putted.

So my goal was to make reference that no two person are alike nor is everyone alike in tossing the dice. We may grip the same, try to toss the same , etc. but we all do something minutely different that only that person can feel it that is making the motion or tossing of the dice. So when I state that in my opinion .. this table is very playable or beatable .. it is my own way of doing thing that are not like everybody else. Believe it or not this fact really hit home when I met Howard and we were both instructing with the "other" group. That group only taught one way to toss the dice and it was the only way. As you can tell that was totally wrong as given by the examples above with the athletes mentioned. No two person are alike but they can try to imitate the BEST. The best example I can give is thru Howard because when we played together and no other member of the other group was around ... Howard would try different techniques and position on the table and for the most part ... IT WORKED. That proved to me that there are other ways to toss the dice than the one we were instructing people to do. Not too long afterwards .. I won't mention names .. but after chastising and fussing at Howard for doing these things in front of students that took the class ... one of the biggies even started to do the same thing and saying that he was the best at it but yet was not.

So what I do cannot be felt and would be very hard to explain in the way I grip and make tosses on certain tables. Going on 9 years now but I had chemo and radiation treatment for my nasal cancer and when I was done and was told I am now cancer free ... during that time period to recovery today my fingers were never the same again thru the feel and sensitivity that I had before the treatment. I can admittedly state that if I tried to perfect the 3 finger grip again .. I cannot do it because of the loss of my sensitivity and therefore my toss suffered. People close to me didn't realize that one fact but still thought that I had a very good toss but I knew better because I couldn't consistently toss and have the the rolls I made before my treatment. Thus I had to make revisions and believe me it is painstaking and time consuming but I didn't give up because I love to play craps and believed that I could still have an advantage over the casino. So when I say the tables are playable and beatable .. in my own way of doing things .. it works for me and may not come close to working for you. Hope this makes sense and sorry if it sounded like I was bashing people but I wasn't ... would never do that. LOL

House of Orange
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Re: No Two person Are Alike

Post by House of Orange » Sun Jun 21, 2020 3:20 pm

Enjoyed your post tenpin.

DoSA
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Re: No Two person Are Alike

Post by DoSA » Sun Jun 21, 2020 3:32 pm

Great Post!!!! Glad to hear that you are now cancer FREE!! And I agree with you analysis - TOTALLY.

In the past I ran into a few of "the other guys" and we had a few great hands together. I can not recall who they were, but good guys all.

tenpin
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Re: No Two person Are Alike

Post by tenpin » Mon Jun 22, 2020 3:51 pm

Hi DoSA ... If you really think about it ... this is what Heavy's and Howard's classes are all about .. they don't make you change your toss but rather try to refine it with the flaws they see one is making. I believe that too many try to make a perfect toss every time and to me that is "impossible". I will use Howard as an example because I know his toss, seen his toss, and played with him and witnessed the reactions of the dice he has with his own style. He does indeed have one of the prettiest toss one will see but if they were perfect every toss then he would never seven out .. would he?? Glad you enjoyed the post.

DoSA
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Re: No Two person Are Alike

Post by DoSA » Mon Jun 22, 2020 4:14 pm

I pretty much do any changes to my toss myself. Memo will watch me and tell me what he sees. I know my balance and the mechanics of my tosses. I use to toss MANY hours every day. Literally wore holes in my tables felt. If my SL OH toss get above the chip rail - then I have a serious problem. But I have not seen many shoot like this - as you said No Two Person(s) Are Alike.

DoSA
Last edited by DoSA on Tue Jun 23, 2020 5:29 am, edited 1 time in total.

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heavy
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Re: No Two person Are Alike

Post by heavy » Tue Jun 23, 2020 2:48 am

I don't feel like you bashed me or anyone else there. I've always steered folks toward a particular "proven" grip and toss, yes. Because we've long since documented many times over that that particular toss works and can explain with neat little charts and graphs the physics of just why and how it works. When you start talking about "off axis" or some of the other "grail quest" tosses folks teach out there my big problem is that when you ask the purveyor of that toss to explain the physics of how the toss works - they can't. They just "know" it does and, in some cases, they have the stats to back it up. Stats are great. It's a solid first step. But if you're going to teach a toss IMHO you need to be able to go beyond that. STILL, what I've ALWAYS said is this. When it comes down to dice influence - "Consistency is King." If you consistently set the dice the same way, grip them the same way, toss them the same way and land them on the same spot on the table time after time you WILL get repeating results. It's just going to happen. Then all you have to do is track your results, determine where your advantage is and bet that advantage. The down side? A program like BoneTracker is pretty much useless when it comes to running transpositions searching for a better pre-set arrangement when you are using - for example - a stacked set or, as one dice instructor teaches - a set with one die square on the deck and the other resting on a leading edge. So there are trade-offs. But bottom line - if it works and you are winning with it then don't fix it. It ain't broke.
"Get in, get up, and get gone."
- Heavy

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Big O
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Re: No Two person Are Alike

Post by Big O » Tue Jun 23, 2020 8:46 am

He does indeed have one of the prettiest toss one will see but if they were perfect every toss then he would never seven out .. would he?
?

Disagreeing/Agreeing?

i guess it would depend on your definition of "perfect toss". There are so many variables involved, different tables, different dice, different obstacles i think most would agree there is not a "perfect toss" for all conditions. If we are talking tossing the dice exactly the same every toss, again i think most would agree its not possible either. Heavy hit it on the head "Consistency is King". I think we have to talk in terms of good tosses. The problem with craps the 7 cant be eliminated from all the faces on any set. Good toss, bad result. This is unique to craps. Most endeavors with practice and proper execution of a well planned routine you are almost guaranteed good results. In craps not so much. Pretty isnt always profitable.

However, if someone could toss the dice EXACTLY the same every toss, same speed, height, momentum, rotation and hit the same spot i like to think the 7 could be avoided. Thats the DIs dream right?
"if it was easy anyone could do it"

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irish
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Re: No Two person Are Alike

Post by irish » Tue Jun 23, 2020 10:33 am

He does indeed have one of the prettiest toss one will see but if they were perfect every toss then he would never seven out .. would he?
Unfortunately, this is reductio ad absurdum. A 100% on axis toss would still result in 2 sevens of 16 possibilities. A good, or great toss, does not mean it will not result in a seven any more than a toss that doesn't result in a seven is an influenced toss.
However, if someone could toss the dice EXACTLY the same every toss, same speed, height, momentum, rotation and hit the same spot i like to think the 7 could be avoided. Thats the DIs dream right?
The DI's dream is to toss numbers at a rate that is less (or more)than what is expected randomly, and bet in a manner that takes advantage of the difference.
Heavy hit it on the head "Consistency is King".
I agreed with this more 18 years ago more than today. What's changed? The definition of consistency. Proven consistency is still data driven... and comparing it to what's expected. While I prefer to see someone take some care in their toss, there is zero evidence that a randy that "consistently" tosses the dice to around the same spot, and "consistently" puts about the same energy on the dice, and tosses them "consistently" about the same height, will demonstrate anything but random results. Tall tales of "consistent" randies, are nothing more than that. Confirmation bias and nothing more.
So, consistency is king only if you have some proper mechanics, some metrics to measure by, and the tools to analyze those metrics. Otherwise, it's meaningless. Otherwise it's "consistency" which is code to me for, "can't throw for shit."
But bottom line - if it works and you are winning with it then don't fix it. It ain't broke.
Again, I agreed with this more in the past. In 20 years, here's what I've discovered about craps players and gamblers in general.
- "I'm up a little" - really means, "Give or take $100."
- "I lost a little" - really means, "I took a beating."
- "I broke even" - really means, "I lost about 1/3 of my buy-in
- "I was ahead, but then I played more and gave some back" - really means, "I was ahead, then I lost my profits and quite a bit more."
- "Look at this pile of chips I won!" - really means, "today was a good day, but don't ask me how I'm doing for the year."

In other words, most gamblers are poor bookkeepers, and worse at telling the truth about winning and losing.
But bottom line - if it works and you are winning with it then don't fix it. It ain't broke.
What this statement really means is, "if it makes you happy, don't fix it, you have no idea if it's broke or not." That's not to say there's no value in being happy. There is. I think that's where the saying, "ignorance is bliss" came from.

Also, it also depends on the meaning of "works" in this context. I've heard people say this or that "works" but then have no idea of how to measure success or failure. So, I'm dubious. Everything "works" if there are no metrics to judge success or failure.

How you achieve proper mechanics has several possibilities, which I think was the original idea of this post. There's not one grip, or single toss philosophy, or stance, or position. But however you choose to grip, or stand or toss, the data has to say you're influencing the dice. Otherwise, you just have a prettier random toss than most players.
"...Who it is that dislikes a man reveals much about the man himself.”

"It is dangerous to be right in matters on which the established authorities are wrong." Voltaire
"Do right. Do - Do - Do Do right." Cabaret Voltaire

mainframe
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Re: No Two person Are Alike

Post by mainframe » Wed Jul 01, 2020 10:07 am

irish wrote:
Tue Jun 23, 2020 10:33 am
In 20 years, here's what I've discovered about craps players and gamblers in general.
- "I'm up a little" - really means, "Give or take $100."
- "I lost a little" - really means, "I took a beating."
- "I broke even" - really means, "I lost about 1/3 of my buy-in
- "I was ahead, but then I played more and gave some back" - really means, "I was ahead, then I lost my profits and quite a bit more."
- "Look at this pile of chips I won!" - really means, "today was a good day, but don't ask me how I'm doing for the year."

In other words, most gamblers are poor bookkeepers, and worse at telling the truth about winning and losing.
MAINFRAME 'LOVED' or "LIKED" above quotation (iPhone messaging motif joke). Not every gabmler is inherently a poor boo keeper. A few of them may have their work finances or personal finances in order, but not their gambling record keeping:)

Irish: I know that I approach a trip or table with the best intention to keep meticulous records and stick to some stop loss/stop win plans, but over time, I get into a bit of a trance state, and reason and logic starts to fly to the wind:)

Irish: One thought I had, and I think you and I discussed this at some point: Its not as simple as knowing what amount you walk in with in your wallet and counting whats in your wallet when you walk out (assuming you don't take a marker or go to an ATM). If you walk in with $500 and walk out with $400, its not specifically that you "lost $100", its also compounded by all the cycling through various wages. You could arguable have "lost" alot more than $100, because you lost various re-invested wagers.

Maybe I am not being articulate here, but what do you call this phenomena?

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