Where's the Dark Side Love ??

This Forum is Under Construction! By popular demand, it's the return of Heavy's Wrong Way Craps forum - where the discussions focus on the Dark Side of casino craps. Questions about playing the Don'ts, Lay Bets, and Laying Odds? You've come to the right place. You'll find all that - plus Dark Side strategies for Dice Influencers - and MORE! Come on in.

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DarthNater
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Re: Where's the Dark Side Love ??

Post by DarthNater » Tue Jul 10, 2018 9:53 pm

Jeez, 11 rolls and then bet a No 4? Heavy would have his 8 pressed to $90 by then.

IMHO, Eleven rolls between decisions is not a cool or cold trending table. I would have most likely transitioned by then, though I can recall a few times where I rode out long hands as the shooters made everything but the point. I just depends on where you are in your session, for instance - if I'm down in negative territory, I'd likely get the itch to pull my odds and place the number and wait for the next shooter - however if I'm already got a 6 & 8 working in addition to that don't then I'm looking for a couple of those 11 rolls to be hits for me - then I'd pull my lay odds. I'f I'm up in positive territory, I'll keep riding the streak, pull the lay after a couple of hits and look to press either the 6 or 8.
D.N8r
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Re: Where's the Dark Side Love ??

Post by stratocasterman » Wed Jul 11, 2018 6:42 pm

Nice report D.N8r!
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Re: Where's the Dark Side Love ??

Post by DarthNater » Wed Feb 20, 2019 12:31 am

Thnick asked me a question in another thread that aligned well with my last darkside session at MGM-so I thought I'd add it here and then build it into a darkside case study as the session lasted nearly three hours in contrast to my more recent hit & run forays.

MGM-NH has 10 tables, they were operating 7 tables (6 at $25 & 1 at $50) - all packed with people waiting. I circled the pit twice. One table ($25) had two don't players already playing-that's always a green light for me to darkside. My second choice was across from it - where there were audible groans of frustration over back-to-back PSOs. Both tempting choices - I opted for the table with the two darksiders as it offered an immediate opening. I put my players card in the rail as a come-out roll commenced. I told the dealer I'd wait to buy-in until there was a decision on the point - so watched the hand under the guise of good etiquette.

He made the point, so I felt I was already ahead having not bet. My rule of thumb is not to rush in. While I won't do a John Patrick and watch a bunch of shooters do nothing, I will tiptoe in with a minimum DP and a minimum lay of single odds. I really want to win that first shooter bet. If I don't win it - then I limit myself to the minimums for the next two point cycles. In other words I don't want to did two deep of a hole if I misread the temperature. Fortunately, the shooter sevened out in 4 rolls; and I repeated the min DP with odds twice more - both with success. Both short rolls also and no sign of 6s or 8s - hence I declined to try a OHCM attack. The next shooter set a point of 8, so I left me DP naked and bet a $25 DC which was met with an ace-deuce - I took the win (I don't stack) and left the DC up. It went to the 10 and I laid $50 odds. Four tosses later came the seven out; and I was paid for both the DP & the DC. So after four shooters, I am comfortable with the fact that I'm solidly in darkside territory. There was no sign of the sheriff or the deputy, nor many signs of sixes or eights. One guy busted and left, so I slide over and got his spot - so I'd be in a better position to shoot.

That's another plus of finding a cold table, eventually you migrate toward a more advantageous shooting position. Which is good for me as I'm not a super morning person for seeking out empty tables; albeit with a 3 timezone difference morning can come early in Vegas. Regardless at MGM-NH there's nary an empty table; you have to be prepared for full & crowded conditions. What's also gotten to be a frequent observation is that nearly 50% of the NH crowd are setting and lobbing now, vice 100% flingers when it opened 2 years ago. So, you really need to watch the randies and see if they may have some skill - fortunately these four guys were shakers & flingers.

The next guy sets an eight for the point, then tosses a six. It had taken five shooters before they could pair a 6 & 8. I add a second DC, which goes to the five and I lay $45. Then he knocks down my no 6 DC, followed by my DP. As I had a no 5 working I did not replace the DP. I generally don't as I really want a seven to come and pay that DC, so I won't dilute my win with a DP. Sure enough after snake-eyes, he tosses a seven and I take my $$. I go back up on the DC, and he does the same thing - an 8, then a six. This time I opt for a transition and place the 6 & 8 for $30 each and also another $25 DC. BAM - he tosses a seven - two near pushes & a DC loss. Oh well. Next shooter PSOs - thanks. Next shooter sets a point of 5, I lay $45 and decide to wait. He throws three eights, a six, some garbage and sevens out. I get the dice & shoot from the don't. It's been about 45 minutes, and I start with a 7, reload to $35, set a 10. Go up on the 6 & 8 at $30 each, hit the eight twice and then seven out. my toss looked ok, but couldn't seem to hit the same spot.

Four of the 7 guys on the far half of the table wouldn't bet the pass line when I was shooting the Don't- but none of them bet the DP later. The two young guys next to me had been watching all this and the blonde guy says "I didn't know you could shoot from that side?" I said "yeah - this table's been cold since I got here - its not giving us any choice - so if you want to make money, come on over to the dark-side". "How do you do that? they said. "Just toss a chip here", I said. They both did & the shooter threw a craps. They were dumb-founded when they got paid. "Welcome to the darkside, guys". We all reloaded on the DP and scored on a PSO. We now had four guys on one side betting don'ts; one original don't guy bugged out before I shot. The next two shooters also failed to make points. By now I had explained how to lay odds and had ramped my lays up to $60.

More tomorrow......
Your lack of faith in The Force disturbs me, Commander.......

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Re: Where's the Dark Side Love ??

Post by Bankerdude80 » Wed Feb 20, 2019 7:18 am

Sweet wins. Great read. D.N8er. 8-)
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Re: Where's the Dark Side Love ??

Post by 22Inside » Wed Feb 20, 2019 8:05 am

Very nice DN8r. Love the detail on your thought process of dark side play.

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Re: Where's the Dark Side Love ??

Post by DarthNater » Wed Feb 20, 2019 4:29 pm

I'm back, thanks BD & 22I for your comments and glad the cruise was good :)

Now back to MGM-NH, our four darksiders were quietly ringing up wins as the dice came around our direction. Blondie grabbed the dice and set them. Hmmmm, here's was a guy who didn't know what the DP is, but he's setting and lobbing, WTF? He set a point tossed some ok looking tosses then clipped a chip and sevened out losing his PL bet he was using the hardway set-sorta. His buddy laughed at him and proceeded to do basically do the same. I now had the dice. No one had made a point since before I'd first had the dice; we were at about an hour & 45 in to things. Using the V-2 mutant I wound up with 9 as the point for my DP. I placed the 6 & 8, hit the 8 twice, then made the point. Yeah, the guy shooting from the don'ts makes the first point in nearly 2 hours. Smiles ensued from Blondie & friend, while the other darksider next to me chose to color up then and there. He had a ton of green, took for ever, I bet another DP, waited for him to pick up and leave then tossed a really nice seven. I bumped my DP to $40, got no ten for my point, laid $80 odds, banged another 6 & 8, pulled my lay odds, and then sevened out.

I'll compress time a bit....the next 6 or 7 all sevened out. I tried the OHCM on the first guy of that pack - nada, so I waited. There was one appearance by the sheriff by the next shooter and it was tossed on a come-out after the guy had tossed 2,12, 3, 3.... with no horn bet but that seven did knock down his 3 x $25 on the ATS, but the three of us were on the DP, so happy days. Then the guy PSO-ed and Blondie's friend cried out "this table can't get and colder"! Blondie told him to shut-up as he got the dice. Blondie started setting the hardways with the threes up. He got a nine & I laid $75, he then started making numbers: 3,9,9,11,11,8. I saw that 8 and decided to try the OHCM on more time & put out a $30 6 & 8. Blondie's friend was right - it couldn't get colder. Blondie kept setting threes up, made two sixes - the second hard and just kept tossing numbers. His grip was ok, took forever to get those threes on top, but never hit the same landing spot twice. I got a couple more pays and pressed the 6 & 8 to $42 each. I got paid on the eight and was about thinking about pulling my lay when Blondie let them fly. Both dice hit the top of the diamonds on the fly and rattled across all the chips. BLAMMO - he made the point. Bye-bye DP & lay. I put down a $30 DP and his next point was a ten. He tossed another 8 and I did the Heavy Power Press to $90. He hit it, then tossed back-to-back fours.

I pulled my $50 lay, and placed $30 on the ten on the line. No more DP on this guy. After a few more tosses he bangs another 8, then the ten. I make my ten look like $50, and place the 4 for $25. Suffice to say I got another hit on the 8 and a hit on the four. I'm running thru my head what my next moves might be when a guy pushes in on the far side and plops down a huge stack of $20s in mid toss. Fortunately the dice missed all that, bounced off a chip for a hard ten. When the dealer paid my ten, I told him to turn me off. They counted out $1300 in twenties, pushed the dice to Blondie, who tossed a seven, line away. Huge energy draining event, sigh. I decided to color up. Nearly $1600 in profit for those 3 hours. About a third of that was Blondie's doing and me turning off at the right time.

There's a lot of good learning examples here, hence my level detailing in case anyone wants to dissect things, D.N8r
Your lack of faith in The Force disturbs me, Commander.......

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Re: Where's the Dark Side Love ??

Post by eastcoast » Wed Feb 20, 2019 7:54 pm

Great report DN, its nice to see how you transition without delay....taking what the table give you.

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Re: Where's the Dark Side Love ??

Post by DarthNater » Wed Feb 20, 2019 8:08 pm

Thanks eastcoast,
I was actually only one for five on transition that day. To the point I just sat on the DP or DC. My rule of thumb is for every lap around the table, one guy will get something going and you have to watch. But hey, sometimes you miss it, sometimes you chase the opposite way and get shredded and sometimes it lines up. For rough math - the 4 failed attempts cost 4 x $60 = $240 against a $105 hit, plus a few more besides; And I got back all my presses since I turned off. It was really the only EDE of the day, but glad I picked up on the vibe, D.N8r
Your lack of faith in The Force disturbs me, Commander.......

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Re: Where's the Dark Side Love ??

Post by memo » Thu Feb 21, 2019 10:39 am

Dn8'r

I really like your detail and step by step decision making process. I know of very few people that can read the table like that. There are some (Nellie types) that have some success, however I feel it is more due to the fact that they are 'off' more than they are 'on'...To this day, I do not believe that seeing a hard 10 and going 'off', is an example of anything else other than voodoo....

I gain insight every report you make.
Memo

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Re: Where's the Dark Side Love ??

Post by stratocasterman » Thu Feb 21, 2019 8:24 pm

D.N8r...always great info from you! I have lately shied away from the craps table, due to things either being way cold or no place to play at the one singular table here you know. I suppose I have really forgot about the Darkside play.

I'm inspired again! I'll find a spot at the table next time and play some Darkside if things look good following your play.
What Heavy said...
"Get in, get up, get gone"

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Re: Where's the Dark Side Love ??

Post by DarthNater » Thu Feb 21, 2019 10:50 pm

memo wrote:
Thu Feb 21, 2019 10:39 am
Dn8'r

I really like your detail and step by step decision making process. I know of very few people that can read the table like that. There are some (Nellie types) that have some success, however I feel it is more due to the fact that they are 'off' more than they are 'on'...To this day, I do not believe that seeing a hard 10 and going 'off', is an example of anything else other than voodoo....

I gain insight every report you make.
Memo
Memo,
It wasn't the hard ten that triggered me, as I was trying to spread to the 4 & 10 after getting good hits on the 6 & 8; I called bets off due to the bozo disturbance at the other end of the table. It was just me trying to protect my gains from an EDE. More like luck instead of voodoo, and this time I'd say good guess, N8
Your lack of faith in The Force disturbs me, Commander.......

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Re: Where's the Dark Side Love ??

Post by scout » Fri Feb 22, 2019 10:34 am

Hi Dn8r,

You stated, ..."I get the dice & shoot from the don't. It's been about 45 minutes, and I start with a 7, reload to $35, set a 10. Go up on the 6 & 8 at $30 each, hit the eight twice and then seven out. my toss looked ok, but couldn't seem to hit the same spot."...

In this situation after setting a point of 10, are you using a set to 7-out, or are you using a set to hit the 6&8?

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Re: Where's the Dark Side Love ??

Post by Seattlerick » Fri Feb 22, 2019 1:53 pm

Nice transition. Only problem is that this table was the equivalent to a 35-45 roll for the right side. You do not find very many tables,as in almost never, that are that cold and do not have an incredible amount of sevens and elevens on the come outs. We need some trip reports for tables that happen far more often, like most that are unplayable. Understanding what an unplayable table looks like, so you can walk away or wait to play later ,is maybe the most important skill of all. Transition moves are necessary skills also, just not called for at very many tables

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Re: Where's the Dark Side Love ??

Post by DarthNater » Tue Feb 26, 2019 10:17 pm

scout wrote:
Fri Feb 22, 2019 10:34 am
Hi Dn8r,

You stated, ..."I get the dice & shoot from the don't. It's been about 45 minutes, and I start with a 7, reload to $35, set a 10. Go up on the 6 & 8 at $30 each, hit the eight twice and then seven out. my toss looked ok, but couldn't seem to hit the same spot."...

In this situation after setting a point of 10, are you using a set to 7-out, or are you using a set to hit the 6&8?
Scout, sorry for my delayed response as been maxxed out on my day job.....

The sets I was using as MGM (as I was slightly out of my prime position) were the V-2 Mutant on the Come-out & the all sevens mutant after I set the point. Actually I use two variants of the V-2 mutant: the first is 4/2 - 2/6 generally from SL1; otherwise from SR1, the hooks and straight out I use 4/2 - 2/6, which Irish dialed me in on several years ago. My All-sevens mutant is 4/5 - 5/4 as it spins out a lot of 6s & 8s when it misses the 7; so generally I plan for a OHCM when I shoot. With that set I am in no rush to seven out; though generally I lay single odds with the DP-that gives me the OHCM's older brother - the NHNL (No hit-no lose lol). That's my usual play based on a lot of bonetracking. Once I get a hit, I pull the lay, stick with the All 7 mutant generally especially if I'm straight out. If I'm at SR1 though, I might switch back to the V-2 mutant, especially if I'm shooting for a second time and think I have a good LZ working.

I wasn't playing GWTG that day - but if i was the set I use is my Crossed sixes mutant: 3/1 - 6/5.

As always mileage will vary, though I'm pretty steady with this approach. Its kinda fun when you're shooting darkside as no one ever gives you any heat, instead they like to smirk at the guy who can't seven out, not realizing I'm pressing my 6 & 8 and making money that way, cheers, D.N8r
Your lack of faith in The Force disturbs me, Commander.......

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Re: Where's the Dark Side Love ??

Post by DarthNater » Tue Feb 26, 2019 11:15 pm

Seattlerick wrote:
Fri Feb 22, 2019 1:53 pm
Nice transition. Only problem is that this table was the equivalent to a 35-45 roll for the right side. You do not find very many tables,as in almost never, that are that cold and do not have an incredible amount of sevens and elevens on the come outs. We need some trip reports for tables that happen far more often, like most that are unplayable. Understanding what an unplayable table looks like, so you can walk away or wait to play later ,is maybe the most important skill of all. Transition moves are necessary skills also, just not called for at very many tables
SR,
Yeah, this was an interesting case in several ways, esp the lack of 7s &11s on the come-out. I've filed a few other reports where the entire session was stymied by the sheriff and the deputy. My rule of thumb is to tiptoe in when darksiding. Usually I watch first. In this case, I took the shortcut as two guys were already on the DP and seemed to know what they were doing, so I watched and bought in. My goal is to win that first bet, or the second. My tolerance is limited if those both go down. Granted its too small statistically, but I hate digging holes with the first couple of shooters. I walk a lot, especially if the first two DPs get knocked down. But, that's how I think, lots of folks will say "I'll go once around the table". Or "since a seven is one in six, I'll try DP on six shooters and if there's multiple comeouts, then I leave". Both can be smart tactics, it depends. As this was a $25 table, I had put a short leash on myself starting out. That works well for me and was exceptional this time, but many days it can be a much tougher grind or a quick walkaway.

We're going to be discussing a lot of these approaches during Heavy's Summer Camp in Vegas class as despite the heat that time of year we do find some cold beaches, ciao, D.N8r
Your lack of faith in The Force disturbs me, Commander.......

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Re: Where's the Dark Side Love ??

Post by scout » Wed Feb 27, 2019 8:40 am

Thanks for the clarification, D.N8r!

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Re: Where's the Dark Side Love ??

Post by memo » Fri Mar 01, 2019 10:25 am

DarthNater wrote:
Thu Feb 21, 2019 10:50 pm
memo wrote:
Thu Feb 21, 2019 10:39 am
Dn8'r

I really like your detail and step by step decision making process. I know of very few people that can read the table like that. There are some (Nellie types) that have some success, however I feel it is more due to the fact that they are 'off' more than they are 'on'...To this day, I do not believe that seeing a hard 10 and going 'off', is an example of anything else other than voodoo....

I gain insight every report you make.
Memo
Memo,
It wasn't the hard ten that triggered me, as I was trying to spread to the 4 & 10 after getting good hits on the 6 & 8; I called bets off due to the bozo disturbance at the other end of the table. It was just me trying to protect my gains from an EDE. More like luck instead of voodoo, and this time I'd say good guess, N8
N'8

Ugh! I had to re-read your report, the hard ten did not register with me as I recognized why you went off...The possible EDE.
My comment was aimed at the 'Nellie' syndrome that has everyone going off when they see a hard ten....Voodoo. I just cannot get on board with that. Dice Coach throws it, good natured, in my face every time I see him....

Memo

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Re: Where's the Dark Side Love ??

Post by DarthNater » Sun Mar 03, 2019 8:33 pm

memo wrote:
Fri Mar 01, 2019 10:25 am
DarthNater wrote:
Thu Feb 21, 2019 10:50 pm
memo wrote:
Thu Feb 21, 2019 10:39 am
N'8

Ugh! I had to re-read your report, the hard ten did not register with me as I recognized why you went off...The possible EDE.
My comment was aimed at the 'Nellie' syndrome that has everyone going off when they see a hard ten....Voodoo. I just cannot get on board with that. Dice Coach throws it, good natured, in my face every time I see him....

Memo
Memo,
I see; lol

Lotsa guys shut off their bets for lotsa reasons. Hey, its their money & their choice. Several folks turned off multiple times during my big hands at Flamingo and Bally's - it's cool. I've heard missing number that shows; the fourth Hardway; or turn off after one horn, or two horns, or three horns..... All as rationales for turning off.... guess that's why they call it gambling, though remember VooDoo is nothing compared to the power of The Force, D.N8r
Your lack of faith in The Force disturbs me, Commander.......

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