The Original Crapsfest / Axis Power Craps Archives Post #6

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The Original Crapsfest / Axis Power Craps Archives Post #6

Post by heavy » Sun Oct 30, 2011 2:35 pm

I hate to re-post this intro at the beginning of each archival post, but I think it's necessary to help those who stumble on them out of sequence. If you've read it once then you can just scroll down the page and start on the next 20 posts.

When the original Axis Power Craps forum was taken down by the ProBoards folks back in 2010 there were over 25,000 posts archived on the board. Thanks to the diligence of several of our board members we were able to preserve around 3000 of the best posts and move them to the Crapsfest Forum in October 2010. Posting continued over there until we hit the 4000 mark, but due to software issues we ended up taking the Crapsfest board down as well. We finally managed to grab a download of the data base from the Crapsfest forum. The posts that follow in this series are directly from that data base.

That's the good news. The bad news it that this capture is in Word format and it includes every bit of html or bbl code that would have been invisible to you on the old forum. That means you'll see code for font size, color, links, and more. It makes it a tad on the cumbersome side to read. However, panning for gold is a pain in the . . back . . . as well. But the gold dust and nuggets you find after sifting through the sand can be quite rewarding. To you I will simply say - it's worth much more than the price of admission (which happens to be free). Enjoy it.

The other issue we have with the archives is the fact that the data base does not recognize members by their usernames. Instead, it assigns each member a code number - e.g. cfe3c39577. That particular code happens to be $5Bills. I know this because he signs most of his posts. If you do NOT sign your posts then there will be no attribution on these archival posts. I apologize if that's a problem for any of you. Just remember that your posts are your property and we will not "sell" or otherwise use them without your permission. Feel free to post at the end of the threads if you want to claim (or disavow) any of the posts. Alas, it is what it is.

If one of you old-timers is interested in volunteering to go through these threads, remove the html/bbl code, correct spacing, etc. and add attribution where you can figure it out then please let me know. I will be happy to grand you moderator powers on this forum so you can edit threads. PM me here on the board or e-mail me at

The maximum post size on the forum is 60,000 characters, so I am going to have to break these 4000 posts down into smaller chunks. We'll see how this works out. My best guess at this point is that it is going to take around 200 individual posts to re-post the 4000 from the data base. That means this is going to be an on-going process for awhile - since I just don't have a lot of time to devote to the project.

Making comments on the individual threads will be difficult, so I am going to suggest that if something triggers an idea you'd like to discuss that you start a NEW thread on the appropriate forum on the board.

Last of all - I suggest ignoring any links or e-mail addresses listed in these posts as the odds are they are no longer functioning. This is particular true in the case of links to banners, photos, etc.

Here is archival post #6


84 65c32857bf Cruise Ship Craps Guide [i:65c32857bf]This information was current in January of 2008. For today's conditions contact your cruise line of choice.[/i:65c32857bf] For years the on-board casino on most cruise lines has been a pig in a poke. Unless you’ve cruised on a specific ship in the past you never really knew what you were getting until you boarded the ship. Here’s a listing of what you can expect from most of the major cruise lines you’ll find sailing from U.S. ports: [b:65c32857bf]Carnival Cruise Lines[/b:65c32857bf] is by far the largest cruise line, currently with 22 ships. Its casinos are among the largest on the high seas. In addition to blackjack, they offer roulette, craps, Caribbean stud poker, Caribbean draw poker, three-card poker and slots. While most tables are $5 and $10 minimums, Carnival also offers blackjack tables with a $25 minimum. They are also is willing to make higher maximums available for players who obtain approval prior to sailing. Carnival’s blackjack rules calls for the dealer to stand on soft 17, which is consistent with casino rules in Las Vegas and more favorable to the player than the policy of requiring the dealer to hit soft 17 as is found on some other cruise lines. Carnival’s craps tables feature double odds (most cruise lines offer only single odds) with a pass line minimum of $5 and maximum of $200. Again, the casino is willing to make higher maximums available for players who obtain approval prior to sailing. Their Ocean Players Club offers something for every level of player from awards for playing slots to credit lines and higher betting limits for high rollers. Players can earn points towards complimentary beverages, free gifts, discounts off on-board services, future cruise benefits and even cash back rebates on future cruises. All Carnival Cruise Lines' vessels have a dedicated casino host to welcome you and answer your questions. All of the larger Carnival casinos host slot and blackjack tournaments as well as other events. For more information, visit the[i:65c32857bf] Ocean Players Club[/i:65c32857bf] at [b:65c32857bf]Celebrity[/b:65c32857bf] cruise lines four newest ships - [i:65c32857bf]Millennium, Summit, Constellation[/i:65c32857bf] and [i:65c32857bf]Infinity[/i:65c32857bf] - each boast a Fortunes Casino. These casinos each features 5 blackjack tables, 2 three card poker, 1 Caribbean stud poker and 1 Texas Hold 'em table, 1 craps table, 2 roulette tables, and about 200 slots. The Fortunes Casinos on three slightly smaller Celebrity ships -- [i:65c32857bf]Mercury, Century and Galaxy[/i:65c32857bf] -- are almost the same, with one fewer poker table and a couple dozen fewer slots. The line's smallest ship -- the [i:65c32857bf]Zenith[/i:65c32857bf] -- has the same number of table games but only 143 slots. Celebrity’s casinos have great ambiance, but the action tends to fade fast after midnight. Generally the casinos close by 2AM for lack of players. Celebrity claims to offer a variety of comps for players who meet certain requirements. However, details on how their comp program works are somewhat murky at this point. [b:65c32857bf]Crystal Cruises[/b:65c32857bf] is a high-end luxury line with two ships considerably larger than those of most competitors. The line recently took over operation of its casinos from Caesars of Las Vegas. Most of the casino dealers and managers are former Caesars employees who stayed on after the takeover. Each of Crystal’s casinos offers blackjack, three-card poker, mini-baccarat, craps, roulette, and slot and video poker machines. Now, as was the case when Caesars ran the casinos, the Crystal Casinos offer all players complimentary cocktails. [b:65c32857bf]Holland America Line's[/b:65c32857bf] newest ships -- the [i:65c32857bf]Noordam, Westerdam, Oosterdam and Zuiderdam[/i:65c32857bf] -- have ultramodern casinos with blackjack tables, Caribbean stud poker, three-card power, Let It Ride, craps, roulette, and slots. Members of their Ocean Players Club can be rated when playing table games in Holland America cruise ship casinos, and may be eligible for complimentary drinks, free on-board gifts and discounts off on-board services. High rollers may be eligible for discounts on future cruise bookings. However, at last report the Ocean Players Club slot system was not yet available in Holland America cruise ship casinos. Norwegian Cruise Line’s Casinos at Sea offer baccarat, blackjack, craps, roulette, Caribbean stud poker, 3-card poker, Texas Hold 'em, Pai Gow poker and tiles, video poker, mystery jackpots, and 24-hour slot machines. [b:65c32857bf]NCL[/b:65c32857bf] was the first cruise line to offer a rewards program similar to those offered by most "land-based" casinos. Known as the Casinos at Sea Players Club, this program -- currently operating on the [i:65c32857bf]Norwegian Dawn, Norwegian Star, Norwegian Sun, Norwegian Spirit and Norwegian Jewel[/i:65c32857bf] and lets players earn "Sea Bucks" when playing either table games or slots. For table games, Sea Bucks are earned based on amount of time played, the type of game, and the average bet. Sea Bucks are earned on slot machines based on coin in and type of machine. Once a member has reached a minimum of $25 in points, the Sea Bucks can be used as payment of on-board items like food and beverages or shore excursion packages. Sea Bucks can also be accumulated and used toward payment for a future cruise, however points expire on a rolling-basis 18 months after they have been earned. [b:65c32857bf]Princess Cruises[/b:65c32857bf], a favorite with many upscale travelers, has virtually doubled its fleet in the past three years. Casinos aboard Princess ships offer all of the popular table games with Las Vegas style rules including craps, roulette, blackjack, Caribbean Stud, Let It Ride, and Three Card Poker. They also offer a variety of slots including video poker and novelty machines -- many of which have progressive jackpots. Members of the Ocean Players Club can be rated when playing table games in Princess cruise ship casinos, and earn points that can be used for discounts on future cruises or cash back rewards. However, the Ocean Players Club slot system is not yet available in Princess cruise ship casinos. [b:65c32857bf]Royal Caribbean's[/b:65c32857bf] newest ships, [i:65c32857bf]Liberty of the Seas and Freedom of the Seas[/i:65c32857bf], are the world's largest cruise ships, and their Las Vegas-style casinos are among the largest on the seas as well. The line's five Voyager class ships -- Mariner of the Seas, Voyager of the Seas, Navigator of the Seas, Explorer of the Seas, and Adventure of the Seas -- are only a bit smaller, and their casinos are among the most active afloat. [i:65c32857bf]Freedom and Liberty[/i:65c32857bf] feature 19 gaming tables, and just over 300 slots. The Voyager class ships feature 16 gaming tables and just under 300 slots. But there is action to be found aboard all ships in the Royal Caribbean fleet, with a minimum of 8 gaming tables and at least 150 slots. Royal Caribbean now has Players Club, which offers qualifying players complimentary drinks in the casino, and based on play, invites some of its high rollers to expense-paid blackjack and slots tournaments. According to Royal Caribbean, to qualify for cruise discounts a player is expected to spend a minimum of two hours a day at the table, betting a minimum of $50 per hand at blackjack, $50 per roll at craps, and $25 per hand or spin at Caribbean stud poker, Let It Ride, or roulette. Slot comps are based on play at $5 per spin. Members of the Player's Club are also able prior to their trip to arrange personal check-cashing privileges provided they have existing privileges at any U.S. land casino. One question players often have about cruise ship casinos is “Who regulates them?” The short answer is that there is no independent governmental regulation such as is provided in Las Vegas by the Nevada Gaming Commission or by local gaming commissions in other jurisdictions. The good news for players is that cruise ship casinos tend to be more likely to resolve disputes in the passenger's favor than most land-based casinos. After all, they want happy cruisers who return to sail with them again and again. But in the absence of government regulators, the cruise ship casinos operate under a set of guidelines published in 1999 by an organization called the International Council of Cruise Lines (ICCL), whose members include most of the major cruise lines. The ICCL guidelines address the equipment, conduct of games, internal controls, and customer service for casinos on cruise ships. In terms of facilities and equipment, the ICCL guidelines call for all equipment purchased and installed on cruise vessels to "meet the regulatory standards of the Nevada Gaming Control Board or other licensed jurisdiction for payback and internal software." Regarding rules of play, ICCL guidelines require that the rules "generally follow those established for casinos in Nevada, New Jersey, or England." Admittedly there are some casinos in Nevada and New Jersey with some pretty bad rules for players. Nevertheless, I think the games are fair if you understand the rules in advanced. And in many cases the games will be better than you’ll find in the local casinos in most of the ports cruise ships visit.
85 9b8c7dc700 Heavy's Fibo Free Odds Progression Here’s a right-side slow grind strategy based on a Fibonacci progression on the Free Odds bet I’ve been playing around with lately. Like any negative progression system there are “rules” one should follow to avoid gambler’s ruin. The rules are simple. 1. Wait for three consecutive seven-outs before placing any action. 2. Begin with a minimum Pass Line bet. Pass Line bets will only be increased if the next Fibo odds progression will exceed the max odds allowed. 3. Pass Line naturals and craps losers are ignored. 4. The objective is to score two consecutive Pass Line and Free Odds winners. 5. After two consecutive Pass Line and Free Odds wins regress to a minimum Pass Line bet and take single odds. Continue to play at this level until you have a Pass Line loser (excluding Come Out craps losers). 6. After your regression, a Pass Line and Free Odds loss is your queue to cease betting until there are three consecutive Pass Line losers. Then you begin the progression again. There’s a lot to like about this strategy. First off, while I am not big on “due number” theory the fact that you wait for three consecutive miss-outs before betting logically puts you three hands closer to a win. Secondly, running your Fibo progression on the Free Odds bet instead of a flat bet such as the Pass or Don’t Pass supercharges the payoffs and generates larger overall wins. By regressing after two consecutive wins you get to stay in the game with little, if anything, at risk on a net basis. Last of all, you’re still on the comp clock when you’re standing there waiting for the table to qualify for your next betting opportunity. On the down side, systems are by their nature quite boring. It is not easy to stand there during a hot hand and watch number after number being tossed while you wait for a decision on your lowly Pass Line bet. And, as with any negative progression, things can get out of hand. To that end, you absolutely must have a loss limit and stick with it. The Fibo odds progression we’ll use assumes you are playing in a 10X odds game. The initial progression is 1X, 1X, 2X, 3X, 5X, and 8X. Remember, if you score a win on any number then your next wager is the “same bet” as the one before. You only increase your Free Odds wager on a loss. If you win one bet then lose the next one you continue with the progression, taking the next step in the series. Last of all, in a 10X odds game, if you reach the 8X odds level without two consecutive wins on the Pass Line you will find yourself up against max odds if you want to take your bet up another level or two. To get there with room to spare, increase your Pass Line wager to $15 on the next bet with $150 Free Odds. If that wager loses in all likelihood you will have exceeded your $500 loss limit for the session and it will be time to call it a session. However, if you want to take one more step then go to $25 with $250 Free Odds. Under no circumstances would I “chase” beyond that level. The strategy gives you a total of eight shots at a win. If you don’t lock one up by that point it will be time to pull the plug. Let’s run through some numbers to see where it all spills out. As usual, we’ll head down to Heavy’s Perfect World Casino - where numbers have a way of working out for us. We’ll buy in for $1000 in a $10 - 10X odds game. We’ll use a loss limit of $500 for the series. After buying in the first three shooters promptly go point-seven. That’s your queue to make a $10 Pass Line bet. The next shooter tosses an eleven on the come out. You lock up a $10 win in the back of your rack and wait for the next toss. On the next toss the shooter establishes the five as the point. You take $10 odds and wait for a decision. The shooter sevens out without making the five. You’ve won $10 and lost $20 so you’re down $10 at this point. Make another $10 Pass Line bet. This time the shooter tosses a three-craps on the come out. You lose $10. Remember, Pass Line Come Out wins and losses are ignored in this system. Place another $10 Line bet and wait for a point to be established. The shooter establishes the four as the point and you take single odds. Once again the shooter sevens out without making his pass. You are now down $50 for the session. Time to make the next bet in the Fibo progression. Once again you make a $10 Pass Line bet. The shooter tosses the dice and establishes the six as his point. This time you take $20 in Free Odds. Remember, in a Fibo progression the next bet is the sum of the prior two losing bets. Now let’s assume the shooter makes his Pass. You are paid $10 for your Pass Line wager and $24 for the Free Odds bet - $34 total. You are still down $16, but because you won that last wager your next bet is “same bet.” You make a $10 Pass Line wager and the shooter tosses as Come Out seven. You lock up $10 but ignore the win as far as your progression is concerned. Next the shooter tosses the nine, establishing it as his point. You take $20 odds and wait for a decision. Unfortunately, the shooter promptly sevens out and find yourself down $36 net. Since the shooter sevened out without scoring two consecutive Pass Line wins you progress to the next step level in the progression. You place a $10 Pass Line wager and the shooter establishes the eight as his point. This time you take $30 in Free Odds. In short order the shooter repeats the eight and you are paid $10 for your Pass Line win and $36 for the Free Odds bet - $46 total. Suddenly your $36 net loss has turned into a $10 net win. But you must score two wins in a row at this level before regressing, so your next bet is again $10 on the Pass Line with $30 Free Odds. Let’s say the shooter sets the nine as the point this time and, after a few trash numbers, tosses it for a Pass Line winner. This time you are paid $10 on the Pass Line and $45 on the Free Odds - $55 total - and you are ahead $65 for the session. Now it is time to regress to a $10 Pass Line bet with single odds. Continue to play at this level as long as this shooter continues to toss Pass Line winners. But if he sevens out then you sit out the next few hands until there are three consecutive Pass Line losers. Then you run the series again. Feel free to check my math on the example above. If I made a mistake it won't be the first time I've misplaced a chip in the rack. Essentially we're just trying to get the concept across here. Strategies like this don’t really improve you chances of winning. They do, however, provide a systematic approach to the game that should extend table time and give you a fair shot of walking with a profit if you take a disciplined approach to the game. Remember, whenever playing systems - especially on random rollers - you should never risk more than you are willing to lose.
86 e9cbc4d978 X-Men and the Square Pair Those of you familiar with Superheroes and villains are no doubt familiar with Magneto of the X-Men comic series. Magneto, born Erik Magnus Lensherr, is a member of the Brotherhood of Evil and is a mutant who can create and control electromagnetic fields. He has this nifty helmet he wears that amplifies the power of his thoughts. All in all he cuts a fairly dashing figure. On any given day you’ll find Magneto psychically tossing large objects around. Is that Army tank threatening him? No problem. It just bounced off the side of a mountain two counties away. Need to escape across the river but there’s no bridge? No problem. He can mentally re-shape metal, turning that barge into a suspension bridge in a matter of seconds. Want to fly across country with your friends and take on the X-Men? How about a magnetic-powered aircraft fashioned out of old manhole covers? Well, you get the idea. It’s all pretty absurd. Or is it? During the Cold War both our government and the Soviets conducted extensive experiments attempting to prove the existence of ESP and telekinesis. Telekinesis, by the way, is much more complex than poor Magneto’s ability - which is limited to moving or reshaping ferrous materials. After all, casinos known as "juice joints" did that for years - manipulating gaffed dice with electromagnets beneath the layout. Telekinesis is the ability to move objects by scientifically inexplicable means. In other words, The Amazing Randy can’t figure it out. Which gets me to the subject of Joseph Banks Rhine. Joseph Banks Rhine was a Duke University professor who, after attending a lecture on the supernatural by Arthur Conan Doyle, began studies that helped develop parapsychology into a branch of science, looking upon it primarily as a branch of "abnormal psychology". In the 1930’s he conducted ESP experiments on many subjects, some of whom demonstrated remarkable ability. In 1934, after several years of cautious research, he published the book "Extra Sensory Perception," which has since been republished many times. But it is his study of what he referred to as psycho-kinesis - what we call telekinesis - that interests dice guys like me. In his studies Rhine tested subjects on their ability to mentally influence the outcome of a roll of the dice. He set up three separate tests - one where the dice were thrown by hand in the traditional toss, one where they were thrown from a cup, and a third where they were thrown by a tossing machine. In the first series the dice were tossed by hand by one of the researchers. The test was to see if the subject could influence the dice thinking about what we refer to as “uptown” numbers - numbers greater than seven. Of thirty-six possible combinations, fifteen are greater than seven. According to the laws of probability, out of 6744 throws the random goal should have been achieved 2810 times. In fact, it was achieved 3110 times. The average rate of scoring on target should have been 15 out of 36 throws over the entire test; in fact it was 16.5. Statistically, the odds against this being a random occurrence of chance are over a billion to one. An English mathematician repeated the experiment using loaded dice designed to yield only 5 “uptown” numbers in 36 tosses. The results were somewhat less than before - 16.2 instead of 16.5 rolls influenced - but all the more impressive since the dice were weighted against those results. Further tests demonstrated that when subjects were aiming for a particular number - say the double six - the results were even better. An analysis of a 200,000 throw book of rolls involving the co-operative effort of the test subject and an independent statistician yielded scores could not be attributed to “biased dice, wishful thinking, recording errors or any other realistic counter-hypothesis.” In order to eliminate such opportunities to cheat, though, Rhine worked with a physicist from Pittsburgh to develop a machine which shook and threw the dice, photographed and filed the result without ever informing the subject of the test of the results. The only human input to the test was that the subject pushed a button to initiate each throw and thought about the target numbers he wished to roll. In tests of 170,000 throws again generated unlikely results that were over a billion to one proposition. Finally, as a control experiment, Rhine conducted a second experiment where the machine had a self-starter which eliminated all human input. The results? They came out precisely according to the laws of chance. In other words, there appeared to be something at work other than random physics in the previous experiments. With that said, is there any evidence that any of this stuff will work in the casino? Well, I’d have to say yes and no. Empirical evidence certainly does not exist. Yet how often have you “felt” like a number was about to roll and it did? How about the guy who tossed out a $100 hard four, then threw six in a row? What are the odds of that? Or the player who hops numbers and immediately brings them back? Is it ESP, psycho-kinesis, toss skill, or just plain luck? For the most part I’ll vote for the latter. The mind is a funny thing. It remembers things it wants to be true and ignores things it doesn’t want to be true. Take the old superstition about the seven showing up after a stick change. The odds of that happening are one in six. The one time it happens, your mind latches onto the fact and says, “Aha! Told you so.” The five times it doesn’t happen your mind ignores it. Stand at the dice table long enough and you’ll see just about anything you can imagine happen. Yes, I’ve seen skilled shooters set for and toss as many as 13 Horn numbers in a row. I’ve seen point shooters set and bullfrog six points in a row. I’ve personally tossed as many as 23 sixes in a single hand - including 9 in a row. Skill? Sure. Up to a point. But there’s also an element of luck involved. Shooters have long hands because the sevens come at the right time. Likewise, they have productive hands when the numbers they are betting come at the right time. Should you trust in your skill? Absolutely. Like to visualize positive results? I think mental imagery can be a powerful tool in our game. Like all that positive energy at the table? It’s like chicken soup - it can’t hurt. Betting more because you are feeling lucky? Odds are those feelings will cost you money over the long run. Think if you can get everyone at the table to “Think Ten” you can throw it consistently? I think you’re going to have to prove that one to me. Meanwhile, I’ll stick with placing the six and eight.
87 aa2bf2b9d9 DI Brainstorming Sometimes I like to just sit down with a legal pad and brainstorm a subject that interests me. Here are the results of one such session on the subject of dice control. I'll start this thread off with a secret tip that the late YoElevenMan delighted in. Why? Because he had rough cabinet maker hands and the trick worked for him. The secret is emory cloth. You can pick it up at the hardware store - or just head to the cosmetics counter at the drug store and buy a fine-grain metal emory file. Here's the secret. Ever notice on those old gangster movies from the forties how the safe cracker sanded his fingertips before spinning the dial on the safe? He did that to make his fingers more sensitive to touch. He wanted to "feel" the lock's tumblers dropping into place as he broke the combination code. I do much the same thing before heading to the casinos. I'll file my fingertips to smooth the skin and remove any rough spots where the dice might drag. This removes a fine layer of skin and actually makes my fingertips more sensitive to touch. I get a better "feel" for the dice when setting and gripping them. In fact, I rarely look at the dice after I have them pre-set. Once I begin to set them I look away - relying entirely on my sense of touch as I grip them. And when the grip feels right - it is right. Another issue precision shooters have is keeping their fingers dry during long hands. If your fingers get damp or sticky the dice may stick or drag coming out of your grip, resulting in a "fatal pitch." Here are a couple of tips to help out. 1. Apply a VERY light spray of anti-perspirant to your fingers before heading down to the casino. Arid XX seems to work best. Stick with the sprays instead of the roll on or stick. Personally, I'm not fond this method, but some players swear by it. 2. Refrain from picking up your beverage container with your shooting hand. Glasses pick up condensation and are sometimes sticky on the outside. Use your non-shooting hand. 3. Refrain from placing bets or picking up chips with your shooting hand. Casino cheques are almost always sticky with body oil, etc. Handle them with your non-shooting hand. 4. Apply a small amount of talc to your fingertips before each hand. There are several ways to get the talc to the table with you. If you wear faded jeans you can simply rub a generous amount of talc into the fabric on your shooting hand side. Simply rub your hand on your pants leg to pick up a bit of powder. Some players put a small amount of powder into their pants pocket for the same reason. I carry a pocket handkerchief with talc folded into it. Any of these will work when handled discretely. 5. Carry a piece of blackboard chalk in your pocket. Simply take it out and roll it between your fingers to dry them and pick up a little chalk dust - which works just as well as talc to keep the dice from sticking. With all of the above you should be careful not to go over the top. A little bit of talc will go a long way. And perhaps the best thing any of us can do is simply take a "bathroom break" a few shooters before the dice come to you so that you can wash and dry your hands thoroughly. Sometimes you'll find yourself being rushed by the stick man or box. Most of the time you can just continue along at your own pace and it won't create a problem. But there will be times when you will be told, "Sir, just pick the dice up and throw them - you cannot pre-set the dice." When that happens you have a several options. My first choice is to simply ignore the warning and continue doing what I was doing just to see where the adventure leads us. Another approach is to simply bring all your action down, pick up your chips and tell the box, "Passing the dice." Your contract bets have to stay up - but if you feel strongly about leaving the table you can leave that as well. Simply lean over, tap the chips and say "Dealer's action." Then turn and walk away. You might also try quick-setting the dice. When quick-setting you do not set the dice to a specific "up" number such as the V-3 Hard Six. You simply take the dice as presented to you, quickly make certain that both dice are not on the same axis. Look at the lateral faces - you don't want something like 6-1 6-1 or 1-6 1-6 or 6-1 1-6 on the sides of both dice. Instead do something like a 6-1 5-2. Whenever you have different numbers showing on the lateral faces of the dice you are on a point-cycle pre-set. You may not be on the particular axis you'd prefer to set - however you will have reduced the number of sevens on axis from four to two - and that is a beautiful thing. Last of all, you can simply slow the game down to a stop. One of the reasons the casinos don't like dice setters is that in many cases the setters take too long. So when warned simply set the dice back on the table and engage the stick and boxman in a little friendly banter. Don't be threatening or intimidating. Give it a little, "You know, I saw this guy in here last night setting the dice. He would bounce them off the back wall, look at them, bounce them again and look at them again, then maybe pick up one die and set it aside while he continued bouncing the other one. I think he called is "schooling" the dice. I never could figure out what he was looking for. Do you guys have any idea?" Just continue to engage them in conversation, stretching it out as long as possible before returning to setting the dice and tossing them as before. Often they will be so glad to see the dice moving again you won't get another warning. I've talked about this before but it's been awhile so it will be new to some of you - and a good refresher to others. For the most part I don't recommend changing your dice pre-set in order to snipe out points during a hand. I like to use the same sett 100% of the time - or if I DO change sets - it's only to vary it from the come out cycle to the point cycle. During the point cycle I don't usually care whether I actually make my pass or not - I'm more interested in having a long hand and banging out lots of box numbers. Occasionally, though, during a long hand I'll find myself growing fatigued. Up around roll number 30 I may get a stitch in my side from leaning over the table. Sometimes my legs begin to ache. And, since I'm diabetic and have poor circulation to my feet - sometimes they'll "go to sleep" on me at the table. The solution, of course, is to change positions and move around a little bit. But you don't want to do that because, after all, this is you shooting position and you're knocking them dead. The solution, in these situations, is to go ahead and make your pass so you can change your position a bit while the payoffs are being made. Which gets me to the point of this post. Let's assume the point is six. Being the heads-up precision shooter that I am, I astutely pre-set the V-3 because it maximizes my opportunity to hit the six - hard or easy. I toss the dice and . . . roll the 5-6 eleven. Hmmm. That's a secondary number but not the one I'm looking for. What to do next? What I'll do in these situations is pre-set the dice to the V-3 when they're returned to me - then rotate the dice on axis until I have the 5-6 eleven facing up. I've maintained the axial relationship of the dice - but changed the "up" numbers to those that rolled on the last toss. Why? Because if I have a problem with my grip or toss that's related to my fatigue - I'm likely to have that same problem on my next toss. So if I set the number I rolled last toss - in theory it should turn the dice back over to what I pre-set the previous roll - in this case the hard six. Does it work? Not all of the time, but often enough to make it worth trying.
88 d6b1ac5cf0 Randy has the dice - To Bet or Not To Bet? There comes a time in this game where you reach a decision not to bet on the chicken feeders - or if you DO bet on them to severely limit your action. This will ultimately help prolong your bankroll while increasing your table time - ultimately positioning you to take advantage of your precision shooting ability. But there's something else you must position yourself for as well - taking advantage of the "streak." But what if the streak occurs when a chicken feeder has the dice? Ah, there's the rub. Last weekend I was standing at the table with three precision shooters when the dice went to an elderly random roller. He was a "snatch 'em up - shake 'em - and bang 'em into the crotch of the table" kind of shooter. And I followed my own rule of not committing anything to his hand on the come out. Then something happened. He threw and eight, a six, another six, another six. And that's when I decided to get in the game. I took a page from my heat-seeking craps strategy, placed the six and eight for $12 each and played a $5 come bet. Due to the hedge effect of the come bet I had 3 units at risk. Next call was the eight and the come bet travelled. Single odds was the call, regress the six to $6 and play another $5 come bet. Less than three units at risk now because I had $4 locked up from the hit on the eight - which rolled again paying me off-and-on for $11. Nine is the point so I place the five for a nickle and play another $5 come bet. I have four units action plus the come bet - net three units - less the two units I've locked up. My net exposure is one unit. One more hit and I'm in fat city. Next toss - the five. Ka-ching. I let the action on the layout earn its way off the board, re-placing each come bet hit with place action and building the bets up until I had three units on the six and eight and two units on the five. Starting low and going slow - I moved on out with a $5 four and ten on subsequent hits. The precision shooter next to me was making similar moves, relying entirely on come bets with double odds - progressing his odds bets on subsequent wins. At the other end of the table - the players were shaking their heads, conversing, wondering how something like this could happen. They didn't have a chip on the layout. The shooter continued to bang out number after number, pass after pass, as his hand stretched to the half-hour mark. I'd built my bets up to $60 each on the six and eight, $25 each on the five and nine, and $30 buy bets on both the four and ten. Along the way I'd taken multiple regressions - stepping back to $44 inside, building back up, then regressing to $66 inside and running the progressions again. When the seven finally showed I had over $200 action on the layout. I shook my head as I watched the dealer rake it over to their side of the table. But how could I be disappointed? In forty minutes of madness I'd turned the morning's $400 loss into a $500 win. And all on the hand of . . . you got it . . . a chicken feeder. There comes a time in this game when you have to be willing to commit. Wild swings will happen - often on the hands of the random roller - and the only way to win on those hands is to get some money on the table. Start low - go slow - use hedges in the early minutes of their hands - but when you have a profit locked up and no sevens are in sight - don't be afraid to take your shot. The only thing you have to lose at that point is your "I should have . . . "
89 ab918c2a96 Farming the Field One of the things I enjoy doing is playing around with various craps betting strategies and systems. There are hundreds of them out there - most relatively worthless. But one that keeps rearing its head is the Field-Place System known by any of a number of names: The Umbrella System, The Iron Cross and The Anything But Seven System are three that come to mind. The problem with systems that require a player to make multiple bets to win single units is that the system player ultimately loses - at a speedier rate than he wins. That's why most of the more successful "systems" are based on single flat bets. The Field-Place system is relatively simple. On a $5 table the player bets $5 on the Field, and Places $5 on the 5 and $6 each on the 6 and 8. Note that a lot of newer players who prefer self-service bets opt for the Big 6 and Big 8 wager in lieu of Place Betting the 6 and 8. Doing so simply increases the house's edge on this strategy. Okay - let's look at the good side of this strategy. Using the Field-Place System you have 30 ways to win - by that I mean there are 30 combinations of the dice that will produce a payoff for you. What's more - if the casino pays double or triple on the two or twelve in the field the player picks up an additional unit or two in the win column. Only six combinations - all of them adding up to seven - result in a loss. Whenever the seven shows you lose all four of your bets - a total of $22. Based on probability, for every 36 rolls of the dice you can expect to win a total of $123 using this strategy - and you can expect to lose $132. That's a net average loss rate of $9 for every 36 rolls. Of course, you shouldn't expect to play this system and lose only $9 every 36 rolls of the dice. That's simply not the way the law of large numbers works. You may catch a streak of sixes and eights, which result in reduced payoffs. Or you may catch a streak of point-sevens, which can send you scampering from the table. But on those occasions where the Field is "streaking" it can be a very lucrative way to play. A few months back in Biloxi I stood next to a player who was evangelic in his promotion of this mode of play. Playing at the green chip level, he started out with $500 and soon farmed it into over $2500. Eventually, though, the sevens began to show, followed by the inside numbers, and his chip stack began to dwindle. When I left the table I heard him muttering to another player, "Damn this game. Just when you think you have it figured out." Can the Field-Place System win? Absolutely. As long as the Field numbers are rolling and the sevens aren't. My advice - if you want to play this way set aside a dedicated portion of your session money for that purpose. When that's gone - move on to greener pastures.
90 bbf39e21cc [quote:bbf39e21cc]We started years ago at, rec.craps. and a few others that I forget.[/quote:bbf39e21cc] Don't you miss the good ol' All Craps days?
91 408a09a6ee Keep em' coming Bill.
92 4e563a2b27 The Completed Parlay A parlay is a move where winnings from a bet are added to the original bet in an effort to compound winnings. A $1 hard six becomes a $10 hard six, for example. A completed parlay occurs when that number rolls a second time. The $10 hard six pays $90 - or $100 and down - or in some cases is parlayed a second time to a $100 hard six. A few years back a player completed a parlay that caused quite a stir at one of the casinos I frequent. In the middle of a hot hand this gent tossed out a black chip and called "One hundred midnight." The dealer set up the bet on the twelve - which the shooter promptly threw. But as the dealer dutifully cut out the $2900 payoff the player waved him off. "Parlay it," he said. Now, in this particular casino the max action on any prop bet is $500. But in this case the box man, for some unknown reason, said, "Book it." You guessed it. Next toss - twelve. "Ninety-three thousand and down." The player was paid, by the way, and the box man was taken off the table and summarily dismissed. Doesn't take long to go from hero to zero in the casino business. The other day I was standing stick left and was having a great hand with multiple hits on the hardways. I had parlayed my initial $1 bet (with $1 piggybacked for the boys) up to $10 and $5 - taken a hit and locked up $75 for myself - pressing my bets up to $25 and $10 for the boys. The dealer's were going nuts. And the stick man was actually praying. "Please God, please God, please God. Make it a hard eight." God, of course, was not in the game. The next eight came easy to the dismay of all. As manyt of you know, one of my favorite come-out strategies when I'm the shooter is to toss out a $5 world bet plus and extra $2 for a high-low (2-12) bet. Set the straight sixes and toss a two or a twelve for a $55 payoff. Subscribing to the need versus greed program - my standard move is to lock up the fifty and press the world. If I have a couple of singles in the rack I'll go ahead and press the high-low as well. And it's amazing how often I hit two wins in a row on these wagers. It's even more amazing how many times I nail three in a row. And occasionally I've managed to string together four - five - and six in a row. But those are exceptions - not the norm. The odds are stacked way against you, and most of the time your parlay or press move will end up as an "incomplete" - by that I mean you never got the second hit. Still, there's something magical about seeing a $1 bet turn into $10, $25, $100, then taking $1000 and down. There's nothing like turning one buck into a thousand to sell you on this play. Which is probably why so many of us waste money on such bets. Planning to play the proposition bets? Then look at it as "entertainment" and not advantage play. Set aside a few dollars for entertainment - and when that's gone it's gone. Get back to what makes the real money at the game. Making passes with max odds.
93 917bd103be I made it over in one piece ! Nice place ya got here . As soon as I figure uot the spel chk I'lm start postin egin . Govner :)
94 ef62e4751c Taking the Crap out of Crapless Since it has finally found it's way into my back yard I thought I'd talk a bit about Crapless Craps. Crapless Craps is quite similar to traditional banker’s craps, however it does have a few variations that can cost you money. The first thing you notice when you walk up to the table is the addition the 2, 3, 11, and 12 as point numbers. Since it is “crapless,” you cannot lose on the come out roll, and the only way to win on the come out is by throwing the seven. The eleven is not a “natural.” At first, giving up one winner to avoid three losers looks like a good deal. Remember, though, that the probability of hitting a point of 2 or 12 is only 1/7, and the probability of hitting a point of 3 or 11 is only 1/4. Giving up that sure winner on the eleven for a shot at winning on the 2, 3, and 12 boosts the house edge on the pass line to a whopping 5.382%. Placing single odds will reduce the vig to 2.936%. Double odds reduces it further to 2.081%. But it is not until you get to 5X odds that the vig gets respectable – down to 1.042%. Now let's think about the "free odds" of those new "point" numbers. The 2 & 12 each roll one way versus six ways to roll a seven - so the correct payoff on the free odds is 6-1. The 3 & 11 each roll two ways versus six ways to roll a seven - so the correct payoff on the free odds is 3-1. Imaging you have $5 on the line and the shooter establishes the twelve as his point. You place full double odds behind the line bet and have a total of $15 in action. What would be the correct pay off if the shooter made the point? In this examplewe would be paid $5 for our line bet, and $60 for our $10 free odds bet, for a total payoff of $65. For the precision shooter - that is a beautiful thing. Now let’s take a look at place betting for Crapless Craps. Obviously, the traditional 4, 5, 6, 8, 9, and 10 bets are played – and paid exactly the same as in a standard game. The difference comes with the placing of the “extreme outside” numbers, the 2, 3, 11, and 12. The pay off odds for place bets on these numbers is as follows: Extreme Outside Place Bet Odds 2 or 12 Pays 11:2 3 or 11 Pays 11:4 As with the five and nine – you must bet an even amount of money to get a correct pay off on the extreme outside numbers. On a five dollar table the minimum correct bet on the two or twelve would be six dollars. For a correct pay off on the three and eleven you would place eight dollars. Most "extreme outside" place bettors play $28 extreme outside. In a $5 game the house will accept a flat $5 place bet on these numbers, but placing an incorrect amount will result in a reduced payoff, which increases the already considerable vig. The 11:2 payoff on the 2 and 12 yields a house edge of 7.143%. The 3 and 11 run a close second with an edge of 6.250%. That is why veteran crapless players with the bankroll prefer to buy the extreme outside just as they would the four and ten. The minimum buy bet on the extreme outside would be $84. The dealer sets up $20 on each of the extreme outside numbers and places a BUY button on top it. The extra $1 (5% of $20) is the vig for the house. The result is that you'll win $60 (3:1) instead of $55 (11:4) on the three or eleven. The two or twelve would pay $120 (6:1). Depending on how much you bet, the vig may work out to a fractional amount. If this fractional amount is not fully payable with any of the available checks, then the vig usually rounded off. Generally, when the vig amount falls halfway or less between two payable amounts, the vig is rounded down. At a table where the smallest chips are $1 the vig will be rounded down on fractions of .50 or less. Casinos have long allowed green chip bettors to buy the four and ten for $25 and only pay a $1 vig. Using this rounding logic, you can often buy a number for as much as $30 and still pay only $1 for the privilege. In some jurisdictions, casinos are even more generous. In many Mississippi casinos, for example, the outside and extreme outside numbers are automatically "bought" at the ten dollar level. In some cases they will let you buy a number for as much as $39 for a $1 vig. The very best casinos will fix the break point at $39 and only charge the vig after the bet wins, reducing the vig even further. The point to remember is that the vig not only varies from casino to casino – it can vary from box man to box man within the same casino. If you do not ask for a better deal you will not get it. By the way, you won't find the DONT PASS or DONT COME bets on the crapless layout. Since the game is “crapless,” there is no dark-side. However, if a player wishes to bet against the dice some casinos will allow him to lay against the numbers and pay the standard five percent vig. The game also offers traditional proposition bets and hardways, come bets, place bets, and free odds. Strategies vary for crapless craps? My suggestion - if you can afford it buy the extreme outside for $84 and place the six and eight for $24 each. Use a pre-set like the Crossed-Sixes that has a high incidence of extreme outside numbers while limiting exposure on the sevens. Play hit and regress on the six and eight while trying to snipe out a hit on the 2, 3, 11, or 12. And bring it home after a hit on any of the extreme outside numbers. For lower bankrolls, consider placing $28 extreme outside plus $12 each on the six and eight. Play a "place to buy" strategy on the extreme outside while playing hit, regress, hit and down on the inside. Last of all - avoid the pass line and come bet unless you are the shooter.
95 3b17a83d52 I wanted to use one of Mad Professors replies, specifically his reply #54 to my thread so I PM him to ask him for permission to use it. He answered me back and told me to post his PM as consent. The following is Mad Professor’s PM to me. Thank You Mad Professor $5Bill [b:3b17a83d52] [color=blue:3b17a83d52] Mad_Professor Moderator ******* Joined: Sept 2003 Posts: 2,037 Re: getting your permission « Message sent Today at 6:38am » Hi Bill, Yes, of course. Go ahead. Please use this PM as confirmation as a blanket-consent for any of my stuff in response to any of your posts. Your contributions to these boards are widely and deeply appreciated. MP[/color:3b17a83d52][/b:3b17a83d52]
96 d322fdc11d Mad_Professor Moderator ******* Joined: Sept 2003 Posts: 1,897 [color=blue:d322fdc11d][b:d322fdc11d]Re: Starting off with a win.[/b:d322fdc11d][/color:d322fdc11d] « Reply #54 on Nov 14, 2009, 10:13am » [Quote] As always, another great trip report,[i:d322fdc11d] $5Bill.[/i:d322fdc11d] I've always wondered how well you would do with a fair-sized bankroll to work with. While you are currently doing a[i:d322fdc11d] lot[/i:d322fdc11d] with a total working amount of [i:d322fdc11d]$100 [/i:d322fdc11d](and you are [i:d322fdc11d]certainly[/i:d322fdc11d] proving that a fairly steady[i:d322fdc11d] solid-return[/i:d322fdc11d] profit can be made with that amount); I'm curious about how you'd do with a bankroll in the [i:d322fdc11d]$5,000[/i:d322fdc11d] range. I'm talking about using roughly the same betting-strategy that you use now; but scaling the [i:d322fdc11d]bet-values[/i:d322fdc11d] up to let's say 5x or 10x the amount that you currently wager. Now before anyone blows a gasket and jumps in to say, [i:d322fdc11d]"Yes, you [b:d322fdc11d]can[/b:d322fdc11d] make[b:d322fdc11d] $30[/b:d322fdc11d] each and every day, but you[b:d322fdc11d] can't[/b:d322fdc11d] make[b:d322fdc11d] $300[/b:d322fdc11d] or[b:d322fdc11d] $600[/b:d322fdc11d] per day"[/i:d322fdc11d]; at least give the tiniest moment of consideration to the fine art of careful and judicious[i:d322fdc11d] [color=blue:d322fdc11d][b:d322fdc11d]chip-skimming[/b:d322fdc11d][/color:d322fdc11d][/i:d322fdc11d]...think about[i:d322fdc11d][color=blue:d322fdc11d][b:d322fdc11d] low-key[/b:d322fdc11d][/color:d322fdc11d][/i:d322fdc11d] (non chest-thumping, non chip-on-your-shoulder, non ass-clown) play...and think about the possibility of a nice regular-Joe kind of guy like[i:d322fdc11d] $5Bill[/i:d322fdc11d][i:d322fdc11d][color=blue:d322fdc11d][b:d322fdc11d] hiding in plain sight[/b:d322fdc11d][/color:d322fdc11d][/i:d322fdc11d] in amongst the hop-betting clutter and Field-posse background-noise. Surely there has got to be at least three or four players in the entire Chicagoland (IL/IN) area who spread somewhat more than $75 a hand (hell, $10 on the PL backed with 5x-Odds, plus $110-Inside equals an average spread of $170/hand). Would $5Bill's $75 spread-action (say[i:d322fdc11d][color=blue:d322fdc11d][b:d322fdc11d] $5 PL with an average of 4x-Odds and $24 each on the 6 and 8[/b:d322fdc11d][/color:d322fdc11d][/i:d322fdc11d]) stick out like shit-on-a-blanket and warrant close and careful pit-attention? The question is: [b:d322fdc11d][color=blue:d322fdc11d]If our friend [i:d322fdc11d]$5Bill[/i:d322fdc11d] had a total gaming bankroll of $5,000, and was spreading something like $75 to $90 per hand (that's about 5x his current average-spread IIRC)...making an average profit of somewhere around $200 or $300 per session (and skilfully skimming mid-denomination chips); would he be able to get away with it...and if so, for how long? [/color:d322fdc11d] [/b:d322fdc11d] I'm[i:d322fdc11d] still[/i:d322fdc11d] wondering why so many say it can't be done. MP
97 57eb97cfc3 [color=blue:57eb97cfc3][b:57eb97cfc3]Re: Starting off with a win.[/b:57eb97cfc3][/color:57eb97cfc3] « Reply #56 on Nov 14, 2009, 5:16pm » I have to start out by saying that recently I have REALLY been working on my discipline and my patience at the Craps table. If I don't control that, I'll lose for sure. [color=blue:57eb97cfc3][b:57eb97cfc3](I've always wondered how well you would do with a fair-sized bankroll to work with.)[/b:57eb97cfc3][/color:57eb97cfc3] Yeah MP, I've been wondering about that too lately. Play the same way just different colored chips that’s all. [color=green:57eb97cfc3][b:57eb97cfc3]So far this month I have played 7 out of 14 days Up this month So Far +$195[/b:57eb97cfc3][/color:57eb97cfc3] [/size:57eb97cfc3] [color=blue:57eb97cfc3][b:57eb97cfc3](While you are currently doing a lot with a total working amount of $100 (and you are certainly proving that a fairly steady solid-return profit can be made with that amount); I'm curious about how you'd do with a bankroll in the $5,000 range.)[/b:57eb97cfc3][/color:57eb97cfc3] It would be nice to fine out if I could. That is, if I had the money to do that with. My only income is my Social Security Disability check. As long as I keep doing what I've been doing lately, I'm certain that eventually my bankroll will grow to that size. But until then just keep all of those unexpected car repair bills and doctor bills away from me for a while. Like I said before to Heavy, if I can do that I'll be in Fat City . [color=blue:57eb97cfc3][b:57eb97cfc3](I'm talking about using roughly the same betting-strategy that you use now; but scaling the bet-values up to let's say 5x or 10x the amount that you currently wager.) [/b:57eb97cfc3][/color:57eb97cfc3] So instead of my $6 on the Don’t, make it look like $30 (5x) or $60 (10x) on the Don’t. On a loss, I normally go up $1 to a $7 Don’t bet and then back down to $6 on the next loss. I stop betting on that shooter after the third lose and start looking for another table. I don’t want the 6 and 8 as the point when I’m on the Don’t. So if the point becomes the 6 or 8, I will place the point for $5 if I have a $6 Don’t bet up and I’ll place the 6 and 8 for $6 if my Don’t bet gets up to $7. If the point becomes any other number, I will leave it stay to win or lose. I don’t lay odds. That’s my play. I know it’s a grind but that’s what has been working for me on the limited income that I have. [color=blue:57eb97cfc3][b:57eb97cfc3](The question is: If our friend $5Bill had a total gaming bankroll of $5,000, and was spreading something like $75 to $90 per hand (that's about 5x his current average-spread IIRC)...making an average profit of ~$300 per session (and skillfully skimming mid-denomination chips); would he be able to get away with it...and if so, for how long?) [/b:57eb97cfc3] [/color:57eb97cfc3] Yes, as long as I didn't keep taking $300 everyday from the same casino. My home casino is pretty tolerant but they do have their limits. I would probably do what I'm currently doing and that' s breaking up my play between different casinos. $5Bill
98 b7a37e1999 Cashless Craps There are few things better than beating the casino with their own money, and one of the simplest ways to do that is with the coupon run. Last week I sorted through all of my mailers and discovered I had around $200 in free-play, cash, or match play coupons accumulated between the five local joints. Good enough for me to make the 90 mile run to the border and the boars. Cashed the Harrah's coupons first and cruised the pits. All ten dollar games and all full. Stopped by the promotions desk on the way out and picked up a free coozie from the current promo - then walked next door to Hollywood. Again, I hit the cage then circled the pit. One five dollar game and one ten - but both full up. Strike two - no action, but I was already up $60. Back to the car and across the river. The Shoe was first - where I cashed a whopping $5 free coin coupon, then stuck my players card in a machine and redeemed an additional $20 in free play. Ran through the free play, cashing out after each hit and, mysteriously enough, winning exactly $20. You have to wonder about that. All of the tables were full so I moved on out, cash in hand, and drove across the Interstate to the next property. Lo and behold - a half-empty five dollar game. I detoured by the cage, cash my $50 coupon, then head back to the table and take up a position stick left. Buy in for a hundred and wait for the dice. It doesn't take long. Set the eight as the point, took double odds and placed the six and nine. Tossed the eight back - hard. The don't player straight out looked uncomfortable. Continued to set and toss for twenty minutes or so - scoring many box numbers and a couple of more passes. In the end I seven out on a point of nine - one of my signature numbers. The table was pretty much full by that point and everyone seemed surprised. Oh well, color coming in. Can I get something to eat? After lunch I headed over to the last coupon on my list to cash one final coupon. Seven more bucks - an odd amount - to add to the kitty. Then I stopped by the craps table, waited for the next come out and put $10 on the DP along with a $10 match play coupon. The shooter promptly tossed and eleven. Alas, you can't win them all. Total "win" - including coupon cash - well over $500 for the day. And I did it all with "their" money. Oh, and don't forget that free coozie. Beating the house with their money. There are few things finer.
99 c6d32b52a9 My calendar says it's Sunday, August 29. I'm wondering how kenb and Governor got to post on August 30. If you're really living a day a head of me and can send back messages in time, how about giving me the winners at whatever Kentucky track is running right now (I think it's Ellis Park). Anyway, glad the board is up and running and here's to bigger and better things! :!:
"Get in, get up, and get gone."
- Heavy